More sewage questions 🙄

[everdecreasingcircle]

  We have been told that if your old septic tank system 1974 had an overflow pipe to the river and your sewage treatment system is to surface water as long as it is with in 10m of the overflow it counts as an existing discharge. Has anyone heard of this i cant see anything in the GBR.  Our old system had a collapsed culvert running from the soakaway to the river which would solve our issue if true as it would make our discharge existing not new. Ever hopeful 

[crooksey]

What exactly are you asking? A new sewage plant installation can usually discharge directly to a river or watercourse, as long as you can access this from within your boundary. If you have a septic tank from 1974, your existing drainage field will not be suitable as it stands. Septic tanks cannot discharge to a river. If you have a culvert that runs to a river, a new sewage plant should be able to use this (if you own it) to discharge.

 

You have given a very vague description of your site and problem, probably best to have a qualified installer come and take a look. Anything done incorrectly could land you a heavy fine.

[ToughButterCup]

12 hours ago, everdecreasingcircle said:

...

if your old septic tank system ... had an overflow pipe to the river and your sewage treatment system is to surface water as long as it is with in 10m of the overflow it counts as an existing discharge.

...

 

The problem description given is .... ermmm, problematic.

 

Is the question ...

Can I replace a septic tank with a treatment system , and use the same discharge route that was used by the septic tank?

 

Yes.

 

14 minutes ago, crooksey said:

.... probably best to have a qualified installer come and take a look. Anything done incorrectly could land you a heavy fine.

 

While @crooksey is correct, from direct personal experience, I can tell you that the likelihood of such a fine being levied is close to zero.

 

Why? The details are long and boring, so here's the short version.

 

Neighbour digs opencess pit next to public highway, and has been discharging into it for 7 years.

 

Complaints to Planning, Building Control, The EA and Environmental Health all result in various versions of

'Don't rock the boat son - we haven't got the money to pursue him; it doesn't smell that bad; no planning permission? - no problem.

And the raw sewage still overflows into the track next to our property every time it rains.

 

The Planning Inspectorate, the County Solicitor, the County Planners, the Enforcement team, mob-handed, (but not the EA)  all visited the site on Tuesday. 7 years after the cesspit was dug. The open cesspit is visible on Google Earth.

 

Every single 'qualified installer' (@crooksey above) who came on to our site and talked utter sh!te - except one. And he was (is) brilliant.

PM for details

[everdecreasingcircle]

Thank you, i think we are just going to pull out of selling our house and  apply for a permit and let the EA decide, i have spent 3 weeks talking to different  people who all give me different views.  Its honestly a nightmare.  I think our installer who us no longer in business has given us the wring advice, if we have to change our system it will cost us a fortune but cant see a way forward otherwise.  Thanks everyone for  your help.  All we want is our drainage to be correct and to of done the right thing. 

[crooksey]

Just an FYI, if you have a solid tank at the moment, you can have "septic tank conversion units" installed, to make it work as a sewage plant.

 

usually requires a full clean down, inspection and install, not horrendously expensive. Less than £5,000 if your tank is solid, can be as low as £3k depending on circumstances.

[everdecreasingcircle]

Thank you, we upgraded to a sewage treatment plant, its 30m rule from a sewer that is turning out to be a problem. we were advised we didnt need a permit, thought building regs covered it but its a grey area and wildy differing advice. nightmare

 

 

[Dave Jones]

59 minutes ago, everdecreasingcircle said:

Thank you, i think we are just going to pull out of selling our house and  apply for a permit and let the EA decide, i have spent 3 weeks talking to different  people who all give me different views.  Its honestly a nightmare.  I think our installer who us no longer in business has given us the wring advice, if we have to change our system it will cost us a fortune but cant see a way forward otherwise.  Thanks everyone for  your help.  All we want is our drainage to be correct and to of done the right thing. 

 

see if solicitor can get an indemnity policy?

[Kelvin]

49 minutes ago, everdecreasingcircle said:

Thank you, we upgraded to a sewage treatment plant, its 30m rule from a sewer that is turning out to be a problem. we were advised we didnt need a permit, thought building regs covered it but its a grey area and wildy differing advice. nightmare

 

 

I don’t know how grey it is. The legislation states clearly enough that you can’t meet the GBR if you are within 30m of a public sewer at any part of the boundary. It also talks about connecting to the sewer if it’s ‘reasonable to do so’ and, if not, you need to apply for a permit. I guess your argument is that you upgraded an existing septic tank so it’s an existing discharge and there are some qualifying points for this but it also states that if those points apply to you AND you meet the GBR criteria you don’t need a permit. Therefore, based on what you’ve described, it seems to me that you do need to apply for a permit and you were misled by the installer either intentionally or through their ignorance. 
 

The problem with all of these kinds of situations is that there is no substitute for doing everything you can to understand the rules and how they apply to your situation before you do anything. While it might be reasonable to rely on the ‘experts’ ultimately the onus is on the homeowner. 
 

As above you could take our an insurance policy to indemnify the buyer against any future liability or claims. Be careful though as if you intend doing this you need to make sure that you are careful who you inform about the problem as you could nullify the indemnity or not be able to take one out i.e. if you contacted the council or the EA and they recorded that you had.
 

I’d definitely look into the indemnity though if you have a keen buyer especially in the current housing market. 
 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Kelvin

[everdecreasingcircle]

Thank you, yes we are going to apply for a permit, we were badly informed.  It was a very stressful time as the old septic tank was leaking and we were under pressure from environmental health to sort it out.  we approached a company to repair it and they informed us we didnt need a permit, we thought as it has been passed by building regs all  was ok.  Hopefully we will get a permit as we are set so low down from the road if not a very expensive error.  

[ToughButterCup]

50 minutes ago, everdecreasingcircle said:

....

we were badly informed.  It was a very stressful time as the old septic tank was leaking and we were under pressure from environmental health to sort it out.

...

 

From my personal experirence, foul drainage is the part of the  building  process that attracts more than its fair share of sloppy practice and sloppy practitioners.

 

You sound a bit 'down' So here, have a laugh on me.

[ProDave]

3 hours ago, everdecreasingcircle said:

Thank you, i think we are just going to pull out of selling our house and  apply for a permit and let the EA decide

I would not do that.  Just tell your solicitor what you have and let your solicitor and the buyers solicitor discuss it between them.

 

You then either complete the sale or the buyer withdraws, only then would I take the action you suggest.

[everdecreasingcircle]

21 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

From my personal experirence, foul drainage is the part of the  building  process that attracts more than its fair share of sloppy practice and sloppy practitioners.

 

You sound a bit 'down' So here, have a laugh on me.

Oh god, 😆.  We are more than a bit down, thank you.  Its a bloody minefield.

[everdecreasingcircle]

12 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I would not do that.  Just tell your solicitor what you have and let your solicitor and the buyers solicitor discuss it between them.

 

You then either complete the sale or the buyer withdraws, only then would I take the action you suggest.

Thank you, we are struggling to see a way through. 

[Kelvin]

18 minutes ago, everdecreasingcircle said:

Thank you, we are struggling to see a way through. 

 

 

What we've said above is the right course of action. Few house sales are straightforward and they become ever more complex if you have private water supplies and/or treatment plants etc. It is stressful though as you don't know what you don't know until you need to know! When we sold our house in 2021 we ran headlong into a whole list of problems that we hadn't been aware of when we bought the new barn conversion from the builder 7 years previously. It nearly cost us the sale. However, through a combination of me being tenacious and some indemnity insurance we managed to get through the conveyancing process and complete the sale. The lenders are becoming increasingly stringent on all this stuff it seems. If your buyer is a cash buyer then it's often a bit easier. 

 

This won't make you feel better but there are many stories of problems caused by not knowing what you need to know until you need to know it. I was chatting to the digger driver the other day and told me of a nearby house being built that's run into a problem. The owner has spent £1.1 million so far and hasn't finished. It's only now he's started looking for water via a borehole. He hadn't worried about finding water because he's in Perthshire so drill a hole anywhere and you'll find water and there's an existing borehole 800m away servicing 8 houses. However, some 8 boreholes later and 7 different companies and they can't find water...

Edited February 24, 2023 by Kelvin

[everdecreasingcircle]

39 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

 

 

What we've said above is the right course of action. Few house sales are straightforward and they become ever more complex if you have private water supplies and/or treatment plants etc. It is stressful though as you don't know what you don't know until you need to know! When we sold our house in 2021 we ran headlong into a whole list of problems that we hadn't been aware of when we bought the new barn conversion from the builder 7 years previously. It nearly cost us the sale. However, through a combination of me being tenacious and some indemnity insurance we managed to get through the conveyancing process and complete the sale. The lenders are becoming increasingly stringent on all this stuff it seems. If your buyer is a cash buyer then it's often a bit easier. 

 

This won't make you feel better but there are many stories of problems caused by not knowing what you need to know until you need to know it. I was chatting to the digger driver the other day and told me of a nearby house being built that's run into a problem. The owner has spent £1.1 million so far and hasn't finished. It's only now he's started looking for water via a borehole. He hadn't worried about finding water because he's in Perthshire so drill a hole anywhere and you'll find water and there's an existing borehole 800m away servicing 8 houses. However, some 8 boreholes later and 7 different companies and they can't find water...

Thanks Kevin, all these stories are making me feel better.  😊

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

foul drainage is the part of the  building  process that attracts more than its fair share of sloppy practice and sloppy practitioners.

Correct. I think it is because the work is unpleasant, so an under-resourced market. And then it is buried and forgotten.

Not just sloppy, unfortunately, as I have had 'specialists' attempt to con extras for unnecessary work. 'Tut, tut, big problems here mate but we can sort it.'