Beware: Smokey and the Log Burning Bandits

[Ecthelion]

Was essential this winter, and every winter. My ASHP is very good but did struggle to maintain comfort temps at -10 due to its need to defrost.

[SteamyTea]

23 minutes ago, Ecthelion said:

 

When it burns you have to look very hard indeed to see anything coming out of the flue and on a gray day you won’t be able to see anything

If you could see PM10s, let alone PM1s, you could get a job in a chemical laboratory, would save getting the microscopes out.

As I said, you are only convincing yourself.

[Ecthelion]

8 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

If you could see PM10s, let alone PM1s, you could get a job in a chemical laboratory, would save getting the microscopes out.

As I said, you are only convincing yourself.

I don’t think I’m only convincing myself. Zealots on the other hand convince very few people. 
 

My wood burner is here to stay and I would never live in a house without one.

[Ecthelion]

On 02/02/2023 at 19:33, billt said:

Hardly balanced, in fact very selective, hardly surprising considering the source.

 

It's possibly true that a modern room sealed stove emits less pollution inside the house than cooking does, but the important pollution is that outside the house which will be very much greater than the pollution from cooking and has a deleterious effect on other people than the stove owner. IOW burning solid fuel is a pretty anti social activity in urban areas.

In urban areas, yes. 
 

in non urban areas there is no issue with it whatsoever.

[Kelvin]

You shouldn’t need a log burner in a house built with high levels of insulation and air tightness. There are folk on here with very little on the way of heating at all. Opportunity missed there. 

But this attitude is why, ultimately, humanity is screwed. At an individual level the odd person burning stuff isn’t so bad. Scaled up to millions then it starts to matter. It’s why the oceans are full of plastic, the countryside full of rubbish. I’m being hypocritical of course as we built a house and the cost to the environment isn’t zero. Buying an existing house might have been more sustainable. Over its lifetime our house should net out but that depends of a number of things. You can scale this up to countries too. Why bother doing anything in the UK as we are too small to make a difference. Etc. 
 

 

[Ecthelion]

10 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

You shouldn’t need a log burner in a house built with high levels of insulation and air tightness. There are folk on here with very little on the way of heating at all. Opportunity missed there. 

But this attitude is why, ultimately, humanity is screwed. At an individual level the odd person burning stuff isn’t so bad. Scaled up to millions then it starts to matter. It’s why the oceans are full of plastic, the countryside full of rubbish. I’m being hypocritical of course as we built a house and the cost to the environment isn’t zero. Buying an existing house might have been more sustainable. Over its lifetime our house should net out but that depends of a number of things. You can scale this up to countries too. Why bother doing anything in the UK as we are too small to make a difference. Etc. 
 

 

Only a few years ago, wood burners were lauded by the climate lobby. They change their mind so everyone else should too? 
 

it’s literally net zero carbon and I’ve planted 208 trees. How many have you planted?

 

I’ve already given you a scenario where it is necessary. My home is modern and insulated. Originally it had an oil boiler which I removed and replaced with an ASHP, as well as solar panels and a battery. 
 

the ASHP is good but cannot maintain comfort temps in sustained very cold weather. Below 18 degrees IAT is hazardous to human health. My wood burner is necessary in these scenarios. I won’t be cold or have my children cold; it’s as simple as that. 

My house is A rated EPC for carbon emissions. Don’t tell me I shouldn’t use a wood burner. 
 

my green credentials can compare with anyone’s but it gets to the point of taking the piss. 

Edited April 21 by Ecthelion

[SteamyTea]

10 minutes ago, Ecthelion said:

Below 18 degrees IAT is hazardous to human health.

I am in trouble then as I am sitting in a room that is between 17.25 and 17.562°C.

 

See you all on the other side as I don't have long to go.

Edited April 21 by SteamyTea

[Kelvin]

About 100 trees I would say. If I count the ones I helped plant on  farm my rental is at then it’s several hundred. Not sure what the point of comparing dick sizes does for the argument. Not burning the wood would be better. Not burning the wood and planting trees better still. 
 

Our house isn’t a passive house. It’s close enough. A wbs would make it over heat even on the very coldest of days. We live in Scotland so it can get cold and during the coldest part of this winter we heated it with a few electric heaters before the ASHP was installed . It was fine. It takes very little effort for it to sit at 18°C. Once it’s up to temperature it takes quite some time for the temperature to drop much so I’m pretty confident I can ride the very occasional -10°
 

This is why they need to be banned for new builds. 

Edited April 21 by Kelvin

[Ecthelion]

Just now, SteamyTea said:

I am in trouble then as I am sitting in a room that is 17.25 and 17.562°C.

 

See you all on the other side as I don't have long to go.

Not a good thing to be doing. 
 

what are your environment credentials, by the way?

[Ecthelion]

2 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

About 100 trees I would say. If I count the ones I helped plant on  farm my rental is at then it’s several hundred. Not sure what the point of comparing dick sizes does for the argument. Not burning the wood would be better. Not burning the wood and planting trees better still. 
 

Our house isn’t a passive house. It’s close enough. A wbs would make it over heat even on the very coldest of days. We live in Scotland so it can get cold and during the coldest part of this winter we heated it with a few electric heaters. It was fine. It takes very little effort for it to sit at 18°C. Once it’s up to temperature it takes quite some time for the temperature to drop much so I’m pretty confident I can ride the very occasional -10°
 

This is why they need to be banned for new builds. 

The point, if I may, is that I won’t take any lectures from anyone less green than me on whether I should use a wood burner sometimes in winter in my rural setting. That’s the point.

 

I’m not using electric heaters. No way.  And 18 degrees is not an acceptable comfort temperature for the vast majority of people, and certainly not for children or older people. It is no way to live in the modern world, especially when there is an alternative net zero option. 

Edited April 21 by Ecthelion

[SteamyTea]

Just now, Ecthelion said:

what are your environment credentials, by the way?

Degrees in Renewable Energy and Environmental Science, A Master and 2/3^rd of a PhD in Energy Usage.

 

2 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

comparing dick sizes

Well I have the biggest I suspect.

[Ecthelion]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

Degrees in Renewable Energy and Environmental Science, A Master and 2/3^rd of a PhD in Energy Usage.

 

Well I have the biggest I suspect.

Wow. Academics aside, what are your environmental credentials?

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, Ecthelion said:

environmental credentials

Know idea in reality, so shall call it 'half an average'.

 

If we could nailed down our true environmental footprints to the gram equivalent, then we could easily tax it to change behaviour.

But we can't.

 

I suspect that you actually like your wood burner and don't really realise that there is an environmental cost to it.

 

Edited April 21 by SteamyTea

[joe90]

However, being devils advocate (with a WBS in the middle of a forest) I use less electricity that may be produced by Drax 🤷‍♂️

[Kelvin]

5 minutes ago, Ecthelion said:

The point, if I may, is that I won’t take any lectures from anyone less green than me on whether I should use a wood burner sometimes in winter in my rural setting. That’s the point.

 

I’m not using electric heaters. No way.  And 18 degrees is not an acceptable comfort temperature for the vast majority of people, and certainly not for children or older people. It is no way to live in the modern world, especially when there is an alternative net zero option. 

If your yardstick is number of trees planted then I’ve planted more so therefore I am allowed to lecture you? I rather suspect not. There’s a long list of stuff we could compare if you like beyond how many trees we’ve planted. We have ‘banned’ plastic containers from our house which is almost impossible really. We try and use refill places as much as possible for example. But it’s cut down the amount of plastic we use significantly probably by about 75%. I no longer shower every day. I wear clothes for longer between washes. We don’t use a tumble dryer etc 

The point is that everyone can justify how they live. It’s the collective impact of that across millions of people around the World.  
 

18°C is a perfectly healthy temperature for the majority of people. Sure if you want it warmer then fine but it won’t impact the health of the vast majority of people. A wbs is likely to be worse for your health. But my point was that three small electric heaters got our house up to 18°C before the ASHP was installed. Therefore I’m quite confident, now it is installed, we won’t be sitting freezing on the odd day it’s cold because it can’t cope wishing we hadn’t deleted the wbs from the plans. 

[saveasteading]

Can I bring in a new rule that anybody who ever has bonfires is not allowed to criticise wood burners?

That's not aimed at anyone, just a generality.

I say that while sitting in a draughty old house with no central heating until it is fixed, and an electric heater on. I don't know what fuel made the electricity.

 

I'm going to overcome it temporarily by doing some pruning and leaf clearing and filling the brown bin to make municipal compost.

I will do it very gently to avoid any dust that is below 10 microns.

[joe90]

As was pointed out on Kuenssburg this morning the UK has done very well so far cleaning up its act (more than a lot) but things like “just stop oil” cannot be done overnight. I believe we are heading in the right direction but it will take time. It was pointed out that to move more quickly will put a bigger burden on the poor, not the well off (who can afford an EV).

[Ecthelion]

41 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

If your yardstick is number of trees planted then I’ve planted more so therefore I am allowed to lecture you? I rather suspect not. There’s a long list of stuff we could compare if you like beyond how many trees we’ve planted. We have ‘banned’ plastic containers from our house which is almost impossible really. We try and use refill places as much as possible for example. But it’s cut down the amount of plastic we use significantly probably by about 75%. I no longer shower every day. I wear clothes for longer between washes. We don’t use a tumble dryer etc 

The point is that everyone can justify how they live. It’s the collective impact of that across millions of people around the World.  
 

18°C is a perfectly healthy temperature for the majority of people. Sure if you want it warmer then fine but it won’t impact the health of the vast majority of people. A wbs is likely to be worse for your health. But my point was that three small electric heaters got our house up to 18°C before the ASHP was installed. Therefore I’m quite confident, now it is installed, we won’t be sitting freezing on the odd day it’s cold because it can’t cope wishing we hadn’t deleted the wbs from the plans. 

No, no, no. You can’t lecture me at all, it’s only added emphasis with regard to our respective environmental credentials. 18 degrees is ridiculous as is not showering every day. Absurd.  But you don’t have to justify it. Just as I don’t have to justify anything to you. 
 

a modern, well installed and well ventilated wood burning stove used appropriately is not likely to he worse for your health than living long term in IAT of 18 and below.  It is totally false to claim otherwise.
 

With an ASHP, if and when you have sustained cold periods of weather I.e ice days, you will regret removing the WBS from your plans.

Edited April 21 by Ecthelion

[Kelvin]

 

I really won’t regret it. This is our third ASHP so it’s not our first rodeo. The previous two houses were nothing like as well built as this one and neither of the ASHP installs were optimal and we never once needed auxiliary heating in those so we won’t here. We’ve had one winter in this house with no heating other than a few small heaters so I have some idea how it will perform. Much warmer overall than the house we rent which does have a wbs and free wood. We use it as little as possible though. We don’t have any heating at all upstairs. The current temp upstairs is 16.1°C. The heating has been off for a week as I’ve been fitting the skirting boards so the sliding door was open all day. 
 

The WHO among others state that 18°C is fine with the optimal temp between 18-21. 

[Ecthelion]

3 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

 

I really won’t regret it. This is our third ASHP so it’s not our first rodeo. The previous two houses were nothing like as well built as this one and neither of the ASHP installs were optimal and we never once needed auxiliary heating in those so we won’t here. We’ve had one winter in this house with no heating other than a few small heaters so I have some idea how it will perform. Much warmer overall than the house we rent which does have a wbs and free wood. We use it as little as possible though. We don’t have any heating at all upstairs. The current temp upstairs is 16.1°C. The heating has been off for a week as I’ve been fitting the skirting boards so the sliding door was open all day. 
 

The WHO among others state that 18°C is fine with the optimal temp between 18-21. 

So when it drops to 17.5 and the ASHP can maintain it and no more; not ideal is it? Elderly relatives come to say and you can’t get your house to a comfort temp in the middle of a cold snap. Again not ideal. 

 

18 is the absolute minimum IAT, but what kind of a way to live is that. 
 

maybe you live far enough south that you don’t really get cold days in winter. But that’s not the case for many people.
 

 

[Mr Punter]

23 minutes ago, Ecthelion said:

18 degrees is ridiculous as is not showering every day

 

 I have a full shower a couple of times a week.  The rest of the time it is groin and armpits plus face and handwashing.

[joe90]

5 minutes ago, Ecthelion said:

So when it drops to 17.5 and the ASHP can maintain it and no more; not ideal is it?

I think that suggests that ASHP was not designed properly or installed correctly, (unless additional heating was part of the remit) there are lots of examples where this has happened which is why they can get a bad press  but there are good examples here where instals work perfectly well (as mine did in my previous build . )

Edited April 21 by joe90

[Ecthelion]

2 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I think that suggests that ASHP was not designed properly or installed correctly, (unless additional heating was part of the remit) there are lots of examples where this has happened which is why they can get a bad press  but there are good examples here where instals work perfectly well (as mine did in my previous build . )

Show me an ASHP that doesn’t doesn’t defrost cycle in very cold weather. A few days a year it struggles to maintain 21 and will manage 19 if the OAT temp has been low enough for long enough. 
 

I’d say I use my wood burner about 20 days per year and maybe 10 it’s more necessary than the other 10. 

[Kelvin]

9 minutes ago, Ecthelion said:

So when it drops to 17.5 and the ASHP can maintain it and no more; not ideal is it? Elderly relatives come to say and you can’t get your house to a comfort temp in the middle of a cold snap. Again not ideal. 

 

18 is the absolute minimum IAT, but what kind of a way to live is that. 
 

maybe you live far enough south that you don’t really get cold days in winter. But that’s not the case for many people.
 

 

One last attempt. 
 

The two previous houses we lived in weren’t that well built certainly not compared to the house were are currently building. Both had ASHPs and both houses sat at 21°C downstairs and about 17/18°C upstairs. 
 

The house we are building can get up to 18°C with very little heat input and maintain that quite easily. Now we have the ASHP installed it will maintain any temperature we want I expect which is likely to be about 21°C. In fact I think it might be hard to run the house much lower than this anyway. How do I know this? Well in January we had the ASHP in floor drying mode over about two weeks ahead of the floor tiling. At one point the temperature in the house hit 32°C. We live near Blairgowrie so it can get cold enough. If yours can’t get the house above 17.5°C on the coldest days (if that’s what you’re saying) then that’s either because the house isn’t performing well or the ASHP isn’t (or both) 

 

What I am telling you though is that even if we wanted a WBS in this house we would never have been able to use it as it would have overheated the house without opening windows. 

[Ecthelion]

6 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

One last attempt. 
 

The two previous houses we lived in weren’t that well built certainly not compared to the house were are currently building. Both had ASHPs and both houses sat at 21°C downstairs and about 17/18°C upstairs. 
 

The house we are building can get up to 18°C with very little heat input and maintain that quite easily. Now we have the ASHP installed it will maintain any temperature we want I expect which is likely to be about 21°C. In fact I think it might be hard to run the house much lower than this anyway. How do I know this? Well in January we had the ASHP in floor drying mode over about two weeks ahead of the floor tiling. At one point the temperature in the house hit 32°C. We live near Blairgowrie so it can get cold enough. If yours can’t get the house above 17.5°C on the coldest days (if that’s what you’re saying) then that’s either because the house isn’t performing well or the ASHP isn’t (or both) 

 

What I am telling you though is that even if we wanted a WBS in this house we would never have been able to use it as it would have overheated the house without opening windows. 

That’s excellent, must be a really good house.

 

i didn’t say that my ASHP had us at 17.5. More like 19 when we had 3 days below zero and nights at minus 10. But 19 is not acceptable to us, and the wood burner was used. All ASHPs frost cycle and if the weather is cold enough for long enough there is a limit to what they can do.