ProDave Posted January 3, 2023 Share Posted January 3, 2023 I have started this thread to discuss Ripple energy, and to prevent a thread where it was recently mentioned going too far off topic. Ripple Energy is a Wind Farm Coop where "members" buy shares and their payback is they then get energy from the wind farm at wholesale rates. Their website is here https://rippleenergy.com/ To "buy" enough capacity to supply all the needs or our all electric house would cost a little over £3K and you would then get wholesale priced electricity for 25 years (the life of the wind farm) Drawbacks as far as I can tell: You pay £25 to reseve a place on the next wind farm to be built, you then pay for it when the shares are oficcially offered but don't start receiving your wholesale electricity until the wind farm comes on line. They conveniently don't tell you what that time interval is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 3, 2023 Share Posted January 3, 2023 4 minutes ago, ProDave said: They conveniently don't tell you what that time interval is. Well planning can take a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Walker Posted January 3, 2023 Share Posted January 3, 2023 I got a quote and the saving was only £188 a year over the next 25 years. You might be buying the electric at wholesale prices, but the maintenance/running cost seems to be very high IMHO. I only pay £20 to access the National Grid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 3, 2023 Share Posted January 3, 2023 54 minutes ago, ProDave said: Drawbacks as far as I can tell: You pay £25 to reseve a place on the next wind farm to be built, you then pay for it when the shares are oficcially offered but don't start receiving your wholesale electricity until the wind farm comes on line. They conveniently don't tell you what that time interval is. Bit of a flaw that one. So you "could" never see any benefit if it doesnt actually get built? I did ask them what happens if they go bust. Aside from mounting a robust defence based on being a co-operative and that i would own a piece of windfarm, they elected not to actually answer my question if they do indeed go bust as the (their words) "managing agents". What i cant figure out is who is the cooperative, ripple as the manging agent, or the company building the wind farm. Something tells me going bust is inevitable once they have amassed a pile of money. Maybe im too cynical??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 3, 2023 Share Posted January 3, 2023 Some info on nipple here: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/10565718 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 3, 2023 Share Posted January 3, 2023 25 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Some info on nipple here: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/10565718 No info on nipples there !! But with regard the company, not very big is it? Raises more questions than answers. Not sure how we deduce that its a co-operative (or not). Looks like a regular ltd company, though im no expert on these matters. Even if it is, i dont see that stops it going bust. The windfarm that you are alledgedly investing in is a seperate entity. So what is my recourse to my share of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 3, 2023 Share Posted January 3, 2023 3 minutes ago, Roger440 said: No info on nipples there Really Tits may be running it, or investing in it. I get the feeling it is some people that mean well, think they have created a new idea, but really have no idea about running an investment business. When at university, we had to do a presentation. One guy, highly intelligent, and understood 'the money' side of things very well, did a presentation about investing in RE and the investors getting discounted energy (this was about 2007). I was next to present, about solar thermal, but pointed out that, as an older person (was twice the age of some on the course) I had seen these sorts of schemes before, and what was actually being sold was finance, or in English, a loan, not a service. After the presentations, the clever bloke said to me 'you saw right though my plan didn't you'. Think he retrained to be a stock broker. For a light hearted look, or maybe not, on finance 12 minutes and 50 seconds in John Finnemore at his finest (apart from Cabin Pressure) https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b01mx27b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 4, 2023 Author Share Posted January 4, 2023 There is a long thread about Ripple on the MSE forum https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6177271/ripple-energy-wind-farm/p62 A lot of people there thinking it is a good idea and a few questioning it. I did ask if anyone who signed up to it how long it took from paying your money to getting first payment and the one person that answered it was about 2 years. That tells me 2 things, the wind farm you are buying into is a long way through it's planning process, it is a lot longer than 2 years from planning permission to generating power. But secondly, when you are presented with a payback time calculation of say 6 years, you really need to add that 2 years on so it will be 8 years before you have recouped your investment. For me it is looking too risky and too long payback. Putting more money into more PV and battery storage looks a lot more secure and likely a quicker payback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 4, 2023 Author Share Posted January 4, 2023 I suspect ripple actually have nothing to do with the maintenance of the wind farm. My guess (and it is only a guess) is they have bought a share in the wind farm and are sub selling smaller shares to individuals. I would give the project more credit if they were more open with the actual arrangements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 They talk about how it’s structured on their website. Ripple Energy act as the managing agent for a ‘reasonable fee’. The cooperative owns the wind farm. As managing agent they take responsibility for the build, maintenance, and managing the partners. The cooperative vote on the managing agent arrangement every 5 years so can vote them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMagic Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 The CEO (Sarah Merrick) is also on Twitter as https://twitter.com/SpeakSarahSpeak and is usually quite responsive to questions. I haven't invested as I'm not keen on the variable nature of it (control freak here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 7 hours ago, Kelvin said: They talk about how it’s structured on their website. Ripple Energy act as the managing agent for a ‘reasonable fee’. The cooperative owns the wind farm. As managing agent they take responsibility for the build, maintenance, and managing the partners. The cooperative vote on the managing agent arrangement every 5 years so can vote them out. Id question that. Looking at their accounts, there is no way they are involved in building or maintaining it. Simply not enough money passing through to support that. I reckon prodave has it right, they bought a bunch of shares and are selling them on. Id take a guess that the "resonable fee" will turn out to be very large, and they definitely wont be around in a few years time. As i said, having engaged with them, the ceased immediately when i asked them to demonstrate that my investment was safe and my discounted bills would continue if they ceased to be the managing agent. They initally tried to use the "its a cooperative" angle, which ripple quite cleary isnt. If prodave is right, then, as far as i can see, you are not protected in any way against them going bust, or otherwise squandering your money. If im wrong on that and its covered by the FCA or similar, im happy to be corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) If you read their website they say they manage it and the cooperative owns the wind farm which probably explains the numbers in their accounts. If what you are saying is right, in that someone else actually owns the wind farm, then they are lying on the website. The cooperative rules are approved by the FCA. The terms of which are on their website but it’s not regulated by the FCA so you aren’t protected. Having read the business documents available on their website I can tell you should the cooperative suffer insolvency investors would likely lose their money. I’m not sure why they couldn’t answer your question when it’s clear in their documentation under risks. Edited January 4, 2023 by Kelvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 4, 2023 Author Share Posted January 4, 2023 There is at best some "creative spin" going on here. From Ripple's website: "Made up of 8 turbines in windy west Scotland, Kirk Hill has the potential to power over 20,000 households and businesses with the cheapest and greenest electricity" So this 8 turbine wind farm can power 20,000 households. So you would expect there to be 20,000 shareholders? This page https://renews.biz/75861/ripple-opens-membership-for-kirk-hill-wind-farm/ suggests there are 4600 co owners? And says it expect to start production in "March this year" (that article was dated February 2022) Ripple's own timeline for starting production is Project timeline: At a glance May 2022 Share offer closes May 2022 Pre-construction preparation October 2022 Track works start December 2022 Crane hardstandings construction January 2023 Turbine Foundations works start February 2023 Grid connection works March 2023 Control building construction July 2023 Turbine deliveries begin November 2023 Turbines start So production (and payback) not likely to start until the end of this year. I am not out to rubbish Ripple, I am doing due diligence before deciding to invest or not, and am uncomfortable with the conflicting evidence I am finding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) Why would you expect there to be 20,000 shareholders? It doesn’t work like that. Firstly you can purchase shares up 120% of your electricity usage. Secondly there is another Company involved that will own circa 30% of the shares with the co-op owning the remaining 70%. Therefore they need enough individuals to be willing to front up the money to cover 70% of the needed investment which they said is about £24 million. That suggests the 4600 cooperative owners are investing circa £3600 each. Edited January 4, 2023 by Kelvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 4, 2023 Author Share Posted January 4, 2023 11 minutes ago, Kelvin said: Why would you expect there to be 20,000 shareholders? It doesn’t work like that. Firstly you can purchase shares up 120% of your electricity usage. Secondly there is another Company involved that will own circa 30% of the shares with the co-op owning the remaining 70%. Therefore they need enough individuals to be willing to front up the money to cover 70% of the needed investment which they said is about £24 million. That suggests the 4600 cooperative owners are investing circa £3600 each. Like I say, I am uncovering "creative statements" So if 4600 investors is about right, then the claim the windfarm can "power 20000 houses" is somewhat ambitious is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 Why does that matter? All you care about is that your circa £3000 investment buys you your electricity at the wholesale price less the cost to produce it albeit you get paid the difference as a credit. I too am interested but I think I’ve decided not to and will take the £3600 and find some tangible way to invest it in the build to either reduce our usage or increase our PV size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 I understand the scepticism but I don’t think it’s the scam some seem to be suggesting. I do think they are trying to do something different with the right intentions. However, I agree that a 25 year payback is likely to see it go insolvent at which point you lose your money. But all investments carry a risk and this is an investment if somewhat less traditional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 4, 2023 Author Share Posted January 4, 2023 10 minutes ago, Kelvin said: Why does that matter? All you care about is that your circa £3000 investment buys you your electricity at the wholesale price less the cost to produce it albeit you get paid the difference as a credit. I too am interested but I think I’ve decided not to and will take the £3600 and find some tangible way to invest it in the build to either reduce our usage or increase our PV size. It's all about confidence if you are going to invest in such a project, and when some of the claims are a little bit suspicious, the confidence drops. I am more inclined to spend that £3000 on some more PV and some batteries (I have still to work the numbers on that so that is not a given yet) but it would be more tangible assets than a bit of paper saying I own a small share in a wind farm, and immediate start to payback as soon as I connect it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 Sure but their 20,000 households is likely based on industry sizing for wind farms. They aren’t likely to make the number up. It’s the least important thing to consider before investing anyway unless your reasons for investing are more altruistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 1 minute ago, Kelvin said: But all investments carry a risk and this is an investment if somewhat less traditional. I seem to remember from business studies that with an investment, you get your capital back as well as any interest or dividend payments. It may seem a minor thing, but that is why it could be a risky speculation, rather than an investment. There has been talk, for decades, about getting local communities to pay for local wind turbines or solar farms. These schemes usually involve a large developer selling a turbine to some sort of community interest company. It may be attached to planning as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 You can leave the scheme and get your capital back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 2 minutes ago, Kelvin said: You can leave the scheme and get your capital back. Possibly, but if you are buying shares, they value may be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 They aren’t shares in the traditional sense in that the value can increase or decrease. You’ll get back whatever they cost as far as I have read (they sell your share to someone else) The benefit is cheaper electricity. If the wholesale price increases and remains high the benefit is greater if the wholesale price collapses then there may be next no benefit. I don’t know what happens if it drops below the cost price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 10 minutes ago, Kelvin said: I don’t know what happens if it drops below the cost price. Which seems to be happening now according to the news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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