Windows and doors. Seal effectiveness?

[Roger440]

After another frustrating few hours trying to get rid of draughts, i pondered the reality of the situtation with modern windows and doors.

 

Looking back, on this house and previous ones, none of the modern double glazed doors or windows actually seem to seal.

 

The seals all seem to be much the same and have maybe 1-2mm of "give" as they are closed.

 

Of course, in a perfect world, thats fine, but the reality is, the frames are never installed to that level of accuracy, and so you end up with gaps between frame and seal. This, despite spending considerable time adjusting the hinges, latches etc, no doubt to a far greater level than any installer would. As evidenced by the "as found" set up.

 

Yesterdays efforts on the back door improved things, but the top of the frame is not straight. So the door touches the seal at the sides, but not in the centre of the top. The frame itself is well and truly secure, so short of ripping the whole frame and starting again, its as good as it gets. Which is rubbish!

 

Are there manufacturers that make windows with propery engineered sealing that can cope with minor inaccuracy? Like automotive manage to do.

 

How are you guys getting on with air tightness tests?

 

Based on my sample of various units across 4 houses quoted performance and actual appear to be worlds apart.

 

I need to replace all the windows at the front of the house, (1979 UPVC, which ironically are better than anything else ive found to date for air tightness, though not thermally) and with something that actually is good.

 

 

 

 

 

[ProDave]

What make and type are your windows?

 

No draughts noticed with my Rationel wooden, aluminium clad 3G windows or the velux roof windows.

 

The cheap roof window in the workshop has a pretty poor trickle vent that does not seal well even when shut.

[Roger440]

9 minutes ago, ProDave said:

What make and type are your windows?

 

No draughts noticed with my Rationel wooden, aluminium clad 3G windows or the velux roof windows.

 

The cheap roof window in the workshop has a pretty poor trickle vent that does not seal well even when shut.

 

My first house were anglian. Because i bought them. All the others, no idea as i didnt put them in. The back door in question is onlky 4 years old, but i know no more than that.

 

Ive not actually counted them all and worked out how many air tight ones there have been, but its definitely sub 20% based on a sample of 4 houses.

 

Im always pleased to find things are adjustable, then become frustrated because despit that, its impossible to get a good seal because nothing is square.

 

Never mind the fact that with the exception of the Anglian patio doors, ALL the doors sag out of square as they are all cearly to heavy to support their own weight! 

 

Ive not even got to trickle vents. Another whole pointess load of nonsense!

 

If im going to fork out of windows i want to be very confident that i dont end up with more of the same. So hard to know from a bunch of pics on a website.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Roger440

[ProDave]

Are these run of the mill UPVC?

[Roger440]

34 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Are these run of the mill UPVC?

 

I guess so?

[craig]

Anglian and quality? Somethings wrong 🤷‍♂️🤔😲😂😂
 

The problem you’ll face is there are quite a few uPVC system from the downright cheap and nasty to the high quality, highly expensive systems.

 

There is a few unknowns, age, system, supplier, manufacturer etc. Everything is factory adjusted but should be install adjusted as well. Whether that has happened or not is a different question. You also have the bang them in, get paid brigade and the install them and not have to return brigade.

 

Start with adjustments, try increase the pressure of the opening part (sash) onto the frame and the horizontal/vertical adjustments. If that doesn’t work look at replacing work seals/gaskets.

Edited January 2, 2023 by craig

[Roger440]

21 minutes ago, craig said:

Anglian and quality? Somethings wrong 🤷‍♂️🤔😲😂😂
 

The problem you’ll face is their are quite a few uPVC system from the downright cheap and nasty to the high quality, highly expensive systems.

 

There is a few unknowns, age, system, supplier, manufacturer etc. Everything is factory adjusted but should be install adjusted as well. Whether that has happened or not is a different question. You also have the bang them in, get paid brigade and the install them and not have to return brigade.

 

Start with adjustments, try increase the pressure of the opening part (sash) onto the frame and the horizontal/vertical adjustments. If that doesn’t work look at replacing work seals/gaskets.

 

Ive done all that. Pretty much most times the frame is out of square, sagging doors aside. No amount of adjustment, even with new seals gets it air tight. Only setting the frame true and square will resolve. Which to me seems to be where it all falls over. If the guy fitting it doesnt get it bob on, its doomed to failure.

 

Whilst it would be easy to critisize the fitment, what practical method an you use to get it absolutrly square in all planes halfway up the side of a house. My back door, its no more than 2mm out. But thats enough, it wont seal.

 

Hence the questions really. What windows are people using, and are the actually air tight when tested as part of the house air tightnress test?

 

How to tell good windows from bad, and how to know that the good ones are installed properly?

Edited January 2, 2023 by Roger440

[SteamyTea]

3 hours ago, Roger440 said:

Are there manufacturers that make windows with propery engineered sealing that can cope with minor inaccuracy? Like automotive manage to do.

I have pondered this every now and again.

My car windows and doors stay sealed with windspeeds of over 100 MPH running past them.  I get similar windspeeds hitting my house, but the air comes in.

I open and close my car door much more often.

My car also has electric opening and closing windows.

[Roger440]

9 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I have pondered this every now and again.

My car windows and doors stay sealed with windspeeds of over 100 MPH running past them.  I get similar windspeeds hitting my house, but the air comes in.

I open and close my car door much more often.

My car also has electric opening and closing windows.

 

Quite!

 

Lets be honest, the sealing on all the windows ive encountered, from an engineering perspective is a joke! Along with the structural integrity in many cases on doors.

 

And my 1979 UPVC units seal look remarkably similar to my 4 year old units. Fortunately modern cars dont use the same sealing arrangements as my 70's triumphs. Its call progress. Seems lacking on windows and doors.

 

I suspect they are all like it though, but i dont actually know that, hence the thread.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Roger440

[SteamyTea]

12 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Fortunately modern cars dont use the same sealing arrangements as my 70's triumphs

You had seals on a Triumph, my Dolly had moss.

Edited January 2, 2023 by SteamyTea

[ProDave]

57 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Hence the questions really. What windows are people using, and are the actually air tight when tested as part of the house air tightnress test?

 

Answered in first reply.  Fitted by builders I trust who took the time to fit them square, straight and secure so they won't move. And air tight sealing to building membrane detailed by me.

[Roger440]

3 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Answered in first reply.  Fitted by builders I trust who took the time to fit them square, straight and secure so they won't move. And air tight sealing to building membrane detailed by me.

 

Out of interest, do yours use the standard type of seal glued/bonded at the corners?

 

In my experience these always split in the end.

[ProDave]

13 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

Out of interest, do yours use the standard type of seal glued/bonded at the corners?

 

In my experience these always split in the end.

Possibly similar seals?

 

I think the difference are 2 fold quality windows fitted with care by builders that understood.  I know while getting the frames square, there was a lot of opening and closing of the casements to ensure they closed evenly without distortion or rubbing.  The Rationel windows come complete, glazing fitted and casements fitted into the frames.

 

A lot of UPVC windows come as the bare frame and assembled on site, more chance to get things wrong.  That's not to say you can't get good UPVC windows, there are plenty on here who have good well fitted UPVC windows.

 

I definitely would not get the local "double glazing" firm to do my windows.

[IanR]

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

Hence the questions really. What windows are people using, and are the actually air tight when tested as part of the house air tightnress test?

 

Happy with my Alu-clad Internorm windows and doors. No drafts to be felt and sub 0.1 ACH on the air test.

 

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

My car windows and doors stay sealed with windspeeds of over 100 MPH running past them.  I get similar windspeeds hitting my house, but the air comes in.

I open and close my car door much more often.

My car also has electric opening and closing windows.

 

Lot's of tricks to get car doors to seal, and the main seal into the shut-face of the door opening allows for around 10mm of compression to cover all tolerance conditions. Nearly all modern automotive (front) doors also have an additional outer lip seal to seal off the gap between door upper frame and bodyside, plus moulded rubber, multi-lipped flat seals in all the corners to handle the transitions.  

 

Front side doors are generally manufactured with an over-bend in the upper frame so that it's only once the force of the compressed seal acts on the upper area of the door that it bends out to the right shape to match the bodyside. The form of front edge of the upper door frame is always a couple of mm under-flush to the A Pillar. There's so much development work done to get automotive doors to silently seal and allow the doors to close.

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, IanR said:

There's so much development work done to get automotive doors to silently seal and allow the doors to close.

Yes.

Not like when I did my work experience at Pressed Steel Company.

There is a reason the exhaust pipes rattled on Rover 200/400.

I designed the middle bracket hanger, took me about 45 minutes, then 3 weeks hiding and pretending to be busy.

Edited January 2, 2023 by SteamyTea

[Roger440]

2 minutes ago, IanR said:

 

Happy with my Alu-clad Internorm windows and doors. No drafts to be felt and sub 0.1 ACH on the air test.

 

 

Lot's of tricks to get car doors to seal, and the main seal into the shut-face of the door opening allows for around 10mm of compression to cover all tolerance conditions. Nearly all modern automotive (front) doors also have an additional outer lip seal to seal off the gap between door upper frame and bodyside, plus moulded rubber, multi-lipped flat seals in all the corners to handle the transitions.  

 

Front side doors are generally manufactured with an over-bend in the upper frame so that it's only once the force of the compressed seal acts on the upper area of the door that it bends out to the right shape to match the bodyside. The form of front edge of the upper door frame is always a couple of mm under-flush to the A Pillar. There's so much development work done to get automotive doors to silently seal and allow the doors to close.

 

Exactly. Meanwhile in the building game, nothing much has happened. Still the same as 40 years ago and relies totally on the skill and dilgence of the installer for it to work right. Which anyone with half a brain will tell you doesnt happen 95% of the time.

 

If you applied any engineering logic you would design something that could accet a sensible amount of misalignment and poor fitting. Because thats EXACTLY what happens.

 

But perversly in this game actual performance doesnt matter much, only the tested performance.

 

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions on windows you have used succesfully. Shall look into them

 

 

[craig]

2 hours ago, Roger440 said:

sensible amount of misalignment and poor fitting. Because thats EXACTLY what happens.

Generally speaking installation tolerances are +/- 3mm, with similar adjustment (usually +/- 5mm in the hinging). 

Good quality windows such as Internorm, Velfac, Gaulhofer, Zyle, Rationel will have good excellent compression and adjustment options. Even good uPVC systems Internorm, Aluplast, Gealan, cheaper systems are exactly that and for a reason.

 

They are all “generally” fitted to a high standard, can’t always say that is true but mostly.

 

2 hours ago, Roger440 said:

But perversly in this game actual performance doesnt matter much, only the tested performance.

It actually matters a lot in this game, more than you probably realise. At least to the manufacturers and suppliers that care. 
 

Bad service, bad installations, go the rounds and when your business relies on the type of clients here. It’s massively important.