Barn style design

[Amateur bob]

4 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Many are. We have used it on our replacement section, and very pleased with how it looks.

Some architects will prefer zinc or secret fix aluminum, but it isn't their money.

Some prefer the corrugated look, but that seems unnecessarily rustic in most cases.

 

what type of metal is that? itll just drill onto the wooden roof trusses? could probably about do the roof myself then

[saveasteading]

Just now, Amateur bob said:

itll just drill onto the wooden roof trusses?

There is a recognised construction of osb over the trusses, then vapour barrier, then battens then the metal.

That is from Cladco, ready coloured 'slate grey', but there are many suppliers.

Then yes, screwed to the battens.

It will all be discussed on BH already, I'd think.

[Amateur bob]

2 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

There is a recognised construction of osb over the trusses, then vapour barrier, then battens then the metal.

That is from Cladco, ready coloured 'slate grey', but there are many suppliers.

Then yes, screwed to the battens.

It will all be discussed on BH already, I'd think.

how much do you reckon it would save over a tiled roof roughly on the av house size?

[Bozza]

On 29/12/2022 at 17:45, Amateur bob said:

how much do you reckon it would save over a tiled roof roughly on the av house size?

The material cost of steel v tile v slate you can work out yourself as many of the roofing suppliers online show how much of each material covers per sqm meter.   You also work out the roof size of what you consider to be an average size house.  

 

Installing steel would be a lot quicker than tiles especially if you have a simple roof design without dormers.

 

I’ve successfully installed a steel roof on my barn / shed but the installation isn’t perfect, there is no way I’d personally do the install on my house and risk it looking gash.  Steel roofs look fab in rural settings if installed well.  There’s a bit of skill involved where the roof meets for example roof windows.  Not one for an amateur.

 

If you are anxious about budget / costs a simple form agricultural style building will be perfect in a rural setting and will cost a lot less than say a house with a complicated form / roof etc.   

 

 

 

 
 

 

 

 

[Bozza]

On 29/12/2022 at 13:52, Buzz said:

Far to many variables to even ball park a cost , i have no idea on the price of metal roofs, sandstone cladding or the ground you will be building on .  then there is how will you chose to build, architect design and build ? architect design through to planning then appoint your own main contractor to complete the whole build ? project manage it yourself stage by stage trade by trade and diy what you can and or have time for ? 

Buzz has answer your query perfectly.  It would be more helpful @Amateur bobif you just told us what your build budget was, we can probably give you a better idea of what is achievable with your budget, and if it is tight, some money saving ideas.  I also built to a specific budget and came slightly under TBH.

[saveasteading]

On 29/12/2022 at 17:45, Amateur bob said:

how much do you reckon it would save over a tiled roof roughly on the av house size?

Just to answer your question, but demonstrate that this is not your priority.

Complete guess £20/m2 difference on the slope area.....with average steel spec and average slate spec.  But they could cost the same if comparing standing seam metal with lower grade slate.....but even then this is one of approximately umpteen variables. 

 

You won't be best pleased if we suggest £3,000 / m2 for your project and it ends up below your expectations, or more expensive. Or that cost is too high and you cancel unnecessariy.

 

As Buzz and Bozza suggest.....you go first.

 

area?

budget?

diy or contractor?

architect?

 

plus

ground flat or sloping

ground conditions

mains available?

 

 

[Amateur bob]

18 hours ago, Bozza said:

Buzz has answer your query perfectly.  It would be more helpful @Amateur bobif you just told us what your build budget was, we can probably give you a better idea of what is achievable with your budget, and if it is tight, some money saving ideas.  I also built to a specific budget and came slightly under TBH.

ok no prob, my build budget was around 220 but ive increased this to around 270k as material  prices have risen id be looking to get around 180m2 of internal floorspace, is this achievable?

[Amateur bob]

18 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Just to answer your question, but demonstrate that this is not your priority.

Complete guess £20/m2 difference on the slope area.....with average steel spec and average slate spec.  But they could cost the same if comparing standing seam metal with lower grade slate.....but even then this is one of approximately umpteen variables. 

 

You won't be best pleased if we suggest £3,000 / m2 for your project and it ends up below your expectations, or more expensive. Or that cost is too high and you cancel unnecessariy.

 

As Buzz and Bozza suggest.....you go first.

 

area?

budget?

diy or contractor?

architect?

 

plus

ground flat or sloping

ground conditions

mains available?

 

 

ok no prob

 

central scotland

270k

manage myself and employ tradesman

no architect

 

flat ground

decent conditions hopefully

mains available 30m away

[saveasteading]

Allow 10% for unknowns at this stage.

Why not draw up what you fancy as the next stage, then put it on here for suggestions?

[Amateur bob]

12 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Allow 10% for unknowns at this stage.

Why not draw up what you fancy as the next stage, then put it on here for suggestions?

ive got a guy whos going to draw up some suggestions ill put them on here for people to see

 

thanks

[ETC]

@Amateur bob I pm’d you earlier. Did you see my message?

[Bozza]

10 hours ago, Amateur bob said:

ok no prob, my build budget was around 220 but ive increased this to around 270k as material  prices have risen id be looking to get around 180m2 of internal floorspace, is this achievable?

I think it is a realistic budget @Amateur bobbased upon my build allowing for fact that prices have risen post covid.   And assuming you’re not talking about lavish fittings etc.  The likes of https://www.dan-wood.co.uk you are paying about £270k for a house that size but that’s excluding foundations infrastructure circa £30k and kitchen (£5k plus), but of course is an imported turn key product which is inevitably more expensive than what you want to do.

 

The planners direction to build a rural barn style build is definitely in your favour budget wise as has been mentioned a few times, as they’re directing you to build something that is actually cheaper to build design wise.  Building with natural stone is time consuming and thus more expensive.  My suggestion would be to keep you under or at budget is to come up with a 1.5 simple barn shape.  Stick with render and timber cladding with a dash of local stonework at low height.  Some of those links I previously provided show barn style houses have done that.  Look at either steel roof or slate.  I doubt very much planners would be keen on concrete roof tiles.   Avoid a design that would involve steelwork and build with a timber frame.  Make sure you put prioritise your budget to the likes of structure, material, insulation etc good doors & window.  Don’t budget for the likes of metal switches and sockets budget for plastic and a simple inexpensive kitchen idea.  If you do well with the budget for the important things then the luxury items eg sockets expensive kitchen can also be selected/upgraded at that point, or if necessary at a later date.
 

If you are going to self manage the trades make sure the build is architect supervised, this provides a lot of protection if something terrible goes wrong and allows you to get a residential mortgage.

 

If you don’t have trades experience yourself a simple saving is doing the painting yourself.  Or fitting a kitchen which is a pretty straightforward especially if you have a simple design.  Or labouring.  
 

 

 

 

[Buzz]

HI @Amateur bobAgree with the comments from @Bozza, with careful financial planning of each stage 270k should be ample to get a 180m2 building finished but you will need to be realistic as to what can be achieved on a modest budget. 

You will still be able to build to a high standard when it comes to insulation and air tightness as the cost of adding extra at this stage is small in the grand scheme of things and will be money well spent , you will unlikely be visiting Tom Howley for a kitchen, Porcelanosa for the bathrooms, buying £100m2 + tiles , bespoke handmade staircases , 40K on windows , 10K+ for a front door etc.

But you can still build to a good standard by using what the trade use , Howdens ,Travis, MKM or who is local to you ,at least you can go in a look at what is on offer and choose the best available for you budget. 

But one of the 1st things i would look into is how much it will cost to get connected to all the services as this could be anything from 5K to 50k or worse and as this will need to come out of you budget it may influence your final design. 

 

 

[Amateur bob]

15 hours ago, Bozza said:

I think it is a realistic budget @Amateur bobbased upon my build allowing for fact that prices have risen post covid.   And assuming you’re not talking about lavish fittings etc.  The likes of https://www.dan-wood.co.uk you are paying about £270k for a house that size but that’s excluding foundations infrastructure circa £30k and kitchen (£5k plus), but of course is an imported turn key product which is inevitably more expensive than what you want to do.

 

The planners direction to build a rural barn style build is definitely in your favour budget wise as has been mentioned a few times, as they’re directing you to build something that is actually cheaper to build design wise.  Building with natural stone is time consuming and thus more expensive.  My suggestion would be to keep you under or at budget is to come up with a 1.5 simple barn shape.  Stick with render and timber cladding with a dash of local stonework at low height.  Some of those links I previously provided show barn style houses have done that.  Look at either steel roof or slate.  I doubt very much planners would be keen on concrete roof tiles.   Avoid a design that would involve steelwork and build with a timber frame.  Make sure you put prioritise your budget to the likes of structure, material, insulation etc good doors & window.  Don’t budget for the likes of metal switches and sockets budget for plastic and a simple inexpensive kitchen idea.  If you do well with the budget for the important things then the luxury items eg sockets expensive kitchen can also be selected/upgraded at that point, or if necessary at a later date.
 

If you are going to self manage the trades make sure the build is architect supervised, this provides a lot of protection if something terrible goes wrong and allows you to get a residential mortgage.

 

If you don’t have trades experience yourself a simple saving is doing the painting yourself.  Or fitting a kitchen which is a pretty straightforward especially if you have a simple design.  Or labouring.  
 

 

 

 

ok does slate work out that much dearer than concrete roof tiles?  ok i will most likely be needing to borrow 100k ish to complete the build so do i need to use an architect for the build in order to qualify for a mortgage? yes i could do landscaping etc and i have a forklift and tractors for shifting earth, unloading supplies

[Amateur bob]

4 hours ago, Buzz said:

HI @Amateur bobAgree with the comments from @Bozza, with careful financial planning of each stage 270k should be ample to get a 180m2 building finished but you will need to be realistic as to what can be achieved on a modest budget. 

You will still be able to build to a high standard when it comes to insulation and air tightness as the cost of adding extra at this stage is small in the grand scheme of things and will be money well spent , you will unlikely be visiting Tom Howley for a kitchen, Porcelanosa for the bathrooms, buying £100m2 + tiles , bespoke handmade staircases , 40K on windows , 10K+ for a front door etc.

But you can still build to a good standard by using what the trade use , Howdens ,Travis, MKM or who is local to you ,at least you can go in a look at what is on offer and choose the best available for you budget. 

But one of the 1st things i would look into is how much it will cost to get connected to all the services as this could be anything from 5K to 50k or worse and as this will need to come out of you budget it may influence your final design. 

 

 

i got a quote 2 years ago for an electric connection and it was 10k but im half the distance from the connection point with this new site so hopefully less, although the way electric prices have gone i cant be sure

[saveasteading]

45 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

slate work out that much dearer than concrete roof tiles?

There are slates from Spain that are good value, but also concrete tiles that look reasonably like slate, and much cheaper. (double size, so good coverage). 

I had a tour of the local merchant and saw all this stuff. The quality and price vary a lot It seems that most new rural houses in slate areas are getting the concrete option, even though the planning drawings say slate.

 

Be cheeky and look at planning submissions in your area, and what materials they show. The advanced search can include terms such as barn. 

For now you only have to describe the materials to the planner. But you want both to get permission and also to avoid committing to an expensive solution.

One thing I read in design guidance was that planners hate render that has dummy stonework (also of render) at features.

[Amateur bob]

18 hours ago, saveasteading said:

There are slates from Spain that are good value, but also concrete tiles that look reasonably like slate, and much cheaper. (double size, so good coverage). 

I had a tour of the local merchant and saw all this stuff. The quality and price vary a lot It seems that most new rural houses in slate areas are getting the concrete option, even though the planning drawings say slate.

 

Be cheeky and look at planning submissions in your area, and what materials they show. The advanced search can include terms such as barn. 

For now you only have to describe the materials to the planner. But you want both to get permission and also to avoid committing to an expensive solution.

One thing I read in design guidance was that planners hate render that has dummy stonework (also of render) at features.

some good advice that i can say im using slate and use the cheaper slate imitation tiles, by dummy stonework do you mean like a bit of sandstone here and there?

[Bozza]

@Amateur bob

 

I’m also rural and have attached pics of my house and my self built barn/shed.  The house has a slate roof and the barn is steel roof so you can see the differences in materials.

 

I originally intended to have Quinn Rathmore concrete tiles on the house due to budget but the planners asked for slate.  I put on Spanish slate and glad this was a requirement. The increase in cost from concrete to slate was around £5-6 k over concrete.  Not just material costs but slate takes longer to install.  My house is 214 sqm as a comparison.
 

it sound like you live on and are a farmer?  Do you have any old buildings either on your land, or from nearby, where you can use the stonework on your building, or source them nearby to incorporate into your build.  If building timber framed effectively the stone would thus not be structural and purely a skin.    I think @saveasteadingwas meaning that using stone slips etc is what the planners are not keen on.as opposed to local stone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Bozza

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Bozza said:

I think @saveasteadingwas meaning that using stone slips etc is what the planners are not keen on.as opposed to local stone.

i explained it badly. in a traditional stone building there are major stone elements for lintels, door openings and at corners.

There is commonly a twee reference to this by rendering a new house, but applying these patterns in a different colour of over-rendering, to look like lumps of stone.

Having said that, I cant find examples, so perhaps it was a short term fashion, stamped out by planning, and removed form brochures.   Found one.  

[Bozza]

@Amateur bobso to follow up on @saveasteading’s image / valid point he’s making, this attached image really empathises what they’re really looking for - the planners.  This 1st image shows the use of slate & steel roof and local stone in a traditional shaped building.  Now this building is clearly an extended original structure but note the low lying stonework.  That won’t be structural but effectively a low wall build against the timber frame.  Deffo the cheapest and easiest way to incorporate stonework into a rural build even with a finite budget you can build something amazing.    If you have several roofs in your design it means you can incorporate both natural slate and steel if they require slate.  I’m pretty confident you’ll be able to build something that fits in but is also good quality in terms of materials & architecture.  Barn style definitely doesn’t mean boring.  
 

the 2nd pic shows a build using just timber cladding and steel so probably built with a tighter budget.  To me it lack a bit of material variety, bit too much cladding, and perhaps would benefit from some stonework or even some render.  

prior to my planning application I sent many of the images I have posted for you to my planning dept, to seek their initial views and they confirmed all would meet design policy requirements.  They asked for slate rather than concrete & were 100% right to do so.  My application sailed through. 
 

Now we know your budget if you were able to post some pics of your plot and any local buildings we can help more.  Many of us have done rural Scottish builds and have quite a good collective knowledge & happy to help.  Plus we’re free, which helps your budget.  
 

also if you have and can use plant equipment in particular a digger that will save you a lot of money for running services.  If the services run through your own land you’re on a winner.  See my previous posts re that very subject.  

[Amateur bob]

22 hours ago, Bozza said:

@Amateur bob

 

I’m also rural and have attached pics of my house and my self built barn/shed.  The house has a slate roof and the barn is steel roof so you can see the differences in materials.

 

I originally intended to have Quinn Rathmore concrete tiles on the house due to budget but the planners asked for slate.  I put on Spanish slate and glad this was a requirement. The increase in cost from concrete to slate was around £5-6 k over concrete.  Not just material costs but slate takes longer to install.  My house is 214 sqm as a comparison.
 

it sound like you live on and are a farmer?  Do you have any old buildings either on your land, or from nearby, where you can use the stonework on your building, or source them nearby to incorporate into your build.  If building timber framed effectively the stone would thus not be structural and purely a skin.    I think @saveasteadingwas meaning that using stone slips etc is what the planners are not keen on.as opposed to local stone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

thanks for the pics they look good, 5-6k for slate instead of concrete tiles is quite an increase?  yes imon a farm, i do have some old sandstone buildings and most of the dykes on the fences are sandstone should i be cutting these up myself and building a skin over the timber frame?

 

thanks

[Amateur bob]

21 hours ago, saveasteading said:

i explained it badly. in a traditional stone building there are major stone elements for lintels, door openings and at corners.

There is commonly a twee reference to this by rendering a new house, but applying these patterns in a different colour of over-rendering, to look like lumps of stone.

Having said that, I cant find examples, so perhaps it was a short term fashion, stamped out by planning, and removed form brochures.   Found one.  

so the planners arent that keen on white render with these these corner stone details etc?

[Amateur bob]

19 hours ago, Bozza said:

@Amateur bobso to follow up on @saveasteading’s image / valid point he’s making, this attached image really empathises what they’re really looking for - the planners.  This 1st image shows the use of slate & steel roof and local stone in a traditional shaped building.  Now this building is clearly an extended original structure but note the low lying stonework.  That won’t be structural but effectively a low wall build against the timber frame.  Deffo the cheapest and easiest way to incorporate stonework into a rural build even with a finite budget you can build something amazing.    If you have several roofs in your design it means you can incorporate both natural slate and steel if they require slate.  I’m pretty confident you’ll be able to build something that fits in but is also good quality in terms of materials & architecture.  Barn style definitely doesn’t mean boring.  
 

the 2nd pic shows a build using just timber cladding and steel so probably built with a tighter budget.  To me it lack a bit of material variety, bit too much cladding, and perhaps would benefit from some stonework or even some render.  

prior to my planning application I sent many of the images I have posted for you to my planning dept, to seek their initial views and they confirmed all would meet design policy requirements.  They asked for slate rather than concrete & were 100% right to do so.  My application sailed through. 
 

Now we know your budget if you were able to post some pics of your plot and any local buildings we can help more.  Many of us have done rural Scottish builds and have quite a good collective knowledge & happy to help.  Plus we’re free, which helps your budget.  
 

also if you have and can use plant equipment in particular a digger that will save you a lot of money for running services.  If the services run through your own land you’re on a winner.  See my previous posts re that very subject.  

theres a bit much wood on these buildings for my liking id prop rather clad the whole house in sandstone than wood tbh would the planners have an issue with this? im central scotland near perth theres a lot of old sandstone buildings about, yes the services run through outr land and also the connection points

[Kelvin]

11 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

so the planners arent that keen on white render with these these corner stone details etc?

Planners in Scotland will happily allow white render. The Scottish white house cottage or farmhouse is common for example. The corner detail is just that a detail and common enough in what was once called exec detached houses.
 

If you ever drive to Pitlochry via A924 about half along up on the hillside you’ll see these two houses. The one on the left is a 19th cottage and the one on the right was built in 2010 as a SIPs timber kit. 
 

 

 

[saveasteading]

White render is ubiquitous in the Highlands and NE Scotland. Lots going up in Fife too. It is the fake stone effect they don't want, and i saw lots around Banchory I think.

That right hand picture is unusual.  1.5 storeys is the norm. I'd say that was 1.75.

 

My belief is that you can stick build cheaper than kit build, (management excluded) so you don't have to use a standard design. But rectangular is good.