Newbie to the slaughter with Barn Conversion Warranty Woes

[Dean Mc]

Hi all,

 

3 years ago we started the dream of building our own family home, when we came back to the fold in Cornwall, having previously dragged my Wife and family away to Lincolnshire due to my work. We are converting a cowshed which has been unused for decades, which on the face of it, seemed relatively simple. We currently have our architects drawings being reviewed by LABC after several issues to get to this stage already.

 

The current rectangular breeze block building will be extended with an additional new build limb to form a capital T shape, with mostly only the rear wall and west gable remaining of the old building. This will then be T-cosied and extended using Nudura ICF.

 

Schoolboy error, but I found out too late that our architect / structural engineer do not provide warranties. Likewise, Cornwall LABC do not cover barn conversions for buildings previously used at any point for livestock and each warranty company I have approached will only entertain new builds, not conversions.

 

Site is cleared and I want to start strip footings as soon as possible, but cautious I can’t do so until I find someone to cover the warranty, in case they need to inspect before we poor.

 

It’s been a torturous and expensive journey of fighting bureaucracy, red tape and being misguided by professionals, but still too stupid / stubborn / determined to build our forever home.

 

Does anyone have any pointers please?

 

Slowly dying from desperation in Cornwall 😁

[MikeSharp01]

Welcome to THE forum for people like us. People on here are always up for moral, mental health, engineering & general building support.

 

It is a struggle but you seem to have had more uphill at the start. If you have a clear site it must be a new build or have I missed something? Also warranties, ours is from buildStore, are really only any good for years 2-9 of the building exitance. This because the expectation of self builders is that they live in the building for at least a year so fix any issues and then the warranties kick in for 3rd parties who might purchase the property. However if it is your forever home then you won't be selling so the whole thig becomes a little less important. At the outermost level both your structural engineer and architect must carry Professional Indemnity Insurance (PI) and so in the case of major failure of one sort or another you may be able to claim on that - indeed your average warranty company will often look in that direction if things go wrong that are so attributable. 

 

 

[nod]

Try Jeremy at CMLC  Professional certificate 

Most banks seem to recognize this 

Unlike an Architect Certificate 

We used Protec on our first and wasn’t impressed CMLC have come in at half the price 

and have had four visits so far As appose to 3 ten minute visits on our previous build over two years 

[Dean Mc]

3 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Welcome to THE forum for people like us. People on here are always up for moral, mental health, engineering & general building support.

 

It is a struggle but you seem to have had more uphill at the start. If you have a clear site it must be a new build or have I missed something? Also warranties, ours is from buildStore, are really only any good for years 2-9 of the building exitance. This because the expectation of self builders is that they live in the building for at least a year so fix any issues and then the warranties kick in for 3rd parties who might purchase the property. However if it is your forever home then you won't be selling so the whole thig becomes a little less important. At the outermost level both your structural engineer and architect must carry Professional Indemnity Insurance (PI) and so in the case of major failure of one sort or another you may be able to claim on that - indeed your average warranty company will often look in that direction if things go wrong that are so attributable. 

 

 

Thank you. 

Yes, we’ve been through the mill already. 
 

No, sorry, not a new build. I probably may not have been too clear; it’s a field with an old cowshed in the corner, which we have to convert, even though there will be very little left, which will all be internal to the ICF and non-structural as it will be T-cosied. 
We’ve been informed that we need a warranty if there is a mortgage requirement.  

Edited December 1, 2022 by Dean Mc

[Dean Mc]

2 hours ago, nod said:

Try Jeremy at CMLC  Professional certificate 

Most banks seem to recognize this 

Unlike an Architect Certificate 

We used Protec on our first and wasn’t impressed CMLC have come in at half the price 

and have had four visits so far As appose to 3 ten minute visits on our previous build over two years 

That’s great, thank you. 
Ironically, I’d just had an email from Buildit, advertising Protek this morning and was going to call them. 

[nod]

45 minutes ago, Dean Mc said:

That’s great, thank you. 
Ironically, I’d just had an email from Buildit, advertising Protek this morning and was going to call them. 

[Mr Punter]

Most lenders recognise Professional Consultant Certificates and there are lots of firm that will provide this.  Cheaper than a warranty and the cover is not as good.

[Dean Mc]

3 hours ago, nod said:

Thank you. 👍
Their landline just goes through to answer machine. 

[Dean Mc]

3 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

Most lenders recognise Professional Consultant Certificates and there are lots of firm that will provide this.  Cheaper than a warranty and the cover is not as good.

Online quote done thank you. Just need to check there’s no small print that would exclude us 

[Mr Punter]

31 minutes ago, Dean Mc said:

Online quote done thank you. Just need to check there’s no small print that would exclude us 

 

The rules are set out in the CML Lenders Handbook.  https://lendershandbook.ukfinance.org.uk/lenders-handbook/

 

Choose your lender to see what their rules are.  Part 2 of the handbook (I think) deals with lender specific criteria for PCCs.

[ToughButterCup]

9 hours ago, Dean Mc said:

...

Schoolboy error, but I found out too late that our

...

 

Welcome.   Welcome also to The School Of Oh Sheet Too Late Now.

 

5 years in to the as yet unfinished build and I'm unpicking yet another school-boy error  of my own making: one made 3 years ago : it  has been quietly waiting to sneer at me for not having  [ .... doesn't matter what it is .....  ]  It will take two full days to rectify and cost me about £200 or so. 

 

I should read my signature line more often. 'Cos I'm not laughing now.  Pub in an hour or two. Ask me then.

 

 

[Jilly]

Plenty of schoolchild errors here too. 

 

I've done a stable conversion and was under the impression you can't demolish the whole thing (that would require demolish and rebuild planning permission), so bits were gradually rebuilt. Quite a palaver sometimes, it was very difficult to get quotes because of the unexpected nature of some things. Some of the Building Control regulations are less strict, which can be helpful, depending on your viewpoint. 

 

Look out for the Buildhubber who suddenly found after unexpected delays, he had a window of just 3 years to complete, in order not to lose the warranty. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Jilly

[Dean Mc]

Thank you both.

We seem to be experiencing errors due to others incorrect information. We were told to reapply for planning to knock down and start again by our architect. Thousands of pounds and 12 months later for numerous reason, it was rejected and we had to revert back to where we were.

 

PCCs are looking favourable atm, but still waiting for other companies as a result of all your help 😎 

[Susie]

When you have sorted this out come back and do your introduction as it’s always nice to read others. 
especially if it sounds similar to me, Cornwall, old cow shed (knock down),ICF. 😀

[LSB]

On 01/12/2022 at 18:45, Dean Mc said:

Thank you both.

We seem to be experiencing errors due to others incorrect information. We were told to reapply for planning to knock down and start again by our architect. Thousands of pounds and 12 months later for numerous reason, it was rejected and we had to revert back to where we were.

 

PCCs are looking favourable atm, but still waiting for other companies as a result of all your help 😎 

You are in the same boat as me, our architect told us the same, like you many 1000's later and our LA said NO that would be a new house in the country so not allowed.
To add insult to injury we then had to pay our architect 1000's more to do the building reg drawings for the plans already passed.  I made the mistake when talking to the architect of saying that we liked our plans, but would like it to be in a slightly different place on site, but as a barn that can't be done.

I'm not sure about your LA, but ours gave us 3 years from approval to finishing we will do it just, but no thanks to all the 'help' we've had from professionals.

[Dean Mc]

It's really is a minefield, but I've learnt so much and will be more than happy to share my experiences with anyone who wants to listen. The only caveat I would add though, is there sometimes seems to have been little parity with some other cases I've heard of, with some quite extreme variations in decisions and outcomes. In hindsight, some people have used planning consultants which have had success and maybe I wouldn't be another 18mths down the line before we dig in anger and kept far more in the bank. Still, we're nearly there........ for the next part of the trials and tribulations 😄

 

Anyway, thank you all for being so helpful and for the fantastic advice. I just need to read through some of the small print and which to select, but it's looking like it's ProfessionalConsultantsCertificates.com or CMLC. Cost and number of visits vary, but has anyone had any experience of either of the companies when there are bumps in the road and their actual advice and services have been required?

 

[MJamesW]

You can get quotes for Structural Warranty and PCC for barn conversions or any conversion as long as you avoid the NHBC, LABC. We went to a broker who got us quotes for both warranty ( 4 quotes) and PCC then explained fully the pitfalls of PCC and which lenders accepted them and a list to compare to the Warranty.  We did eventually choose a warranty as we were selling them and felt it was more comprehensive. On the BTL we chose PCC. One thing I did learn was that PCC are not accepted on Help to Buy   

[saveasteading]

On 01/12/2022 at 06:20, Dean Mc said:

our architect / structural engineer do not provide warranties.

They can, although it will actually be from their insurer, so you have cover in case of a huge claim.

BUT they don't have to, and it adds little value anyway.

Any qualified and fully insured professional will have PI (professional Indemnity) insurance , and this covers you for (from memory) 10 or 12 years. No extra cost, just ask for a copy of their cover (which has cost them a lot annually).

 

But in the case of a problem you can only claim for their element of responsibility, not necessarily for the whole matter.

 

When any of our clients asked for a design warranty our insurer was fine with it....it actually reduced risk they said because the terms were so defined.

 

On 01/12/2022 at 06:20, Dean Mc said:

being misguided by professionals,

 

Perhaps, but isn't it more that you want what isn't available?

The more you put a project entirely in the hands of one party, either project manager or a design and build contractor, the more you are covered.....but you have to pay them for the management and risk..

 

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who had a successful claim on a warranty. Insurance companies' priority is often to find a way out of liability. Next they try to pass the responsibility on to one of the professionals (under their PI) , which is protection you already have.

I think most issues are with build quality, not primary design.

 

As to bad planning advice. Of course we don't know the circumstances and perhaps it was wrong advice. But if planning permission was certain, there would be no need to apply, and there are lots of grey areas. Does the contract say that he guaranteed approval?

If the advice was clearly completely silly, then you have a claim against the Architect, and if he uses the term Architect, then he has to be ARB registered,  and there is a complaints process.

[Dean Mc]

On 08/12/2022 at 12:11, saveasteading said:

As to bad planning advice. Of course we don't know the circumstances and perhaps it was wrong advice. But if planning permission was certain, there would be no need to apply, and there are lots of grey areas. Does the contract say that he guaranteed approval?

If the advice was clearly completely silly, then you have a claim against the Architect, and if he uses the term Architect, then he has to be ARB registered,  and there is a complaints process.

Thanks saveasteading.

 

In short, we had planning already approved, but it was to convert the block cowshed. Our new architect assured us he could draw new plans and have planning approve a demolition and new build. This was flatly refused. 

 

Tbh, it's not just planning we've had poor information on, which has made the build more time consuming and costly.

[Dean Mc]

On 08/12/2022 at 11:35, MJamesW said:

You can get quotes for Structural Warranty and PCC for barn conversions or any conversion as long as you avoid the NHBC, LABC. We went to a broker who got us quotes for both warranty ( 4 quotes) and PCC then explained fully the pitfalls of PCC and which lenders accepted them and a list to compare to the Warranty.  We did eventually choose a warranty as we were selling them and felt it was more comprehensive. On the BTL we chose PCC. One thing I did learn was that PCC are not accepted on Help to Buy   

 

What would you say are the main pitfalls?