architect vs. architectural designers

[SteamyTea]

40 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

There was a lot of heavy stuff about contract administration, dispute resolution, finances, VAT, and real life that I hadn't expected to see

I wonder why?

Maybe Architects are crap business people.

41 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

The maths and ethics parts were really easy..

In all fairness it is pretty easy at most degree level, just arithmetic.

[saveasteading]

5 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Maybe Architects are crap business people.

To be fair, this is for people 3 or so years out of uni. In a big practice they mat have no involvement in the business side, so this has to be a good idea.

 

5 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

fairness it is pretty easy at most degree level, just arithmetic.

Says someone who is good at maths?

A large proportion of our industry don't have an inherent feeling for quantities. And even more  couldn't  put an invoice together with retentions and VAT worked properly.

 

Then there is 'setting out'.  I wonder how people find it difficult. They think I'm being lucky or finnicky. 

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Says someone who is good at maths?

Only because I work at it.

Really comes down to how good the teaching is and how motivated the students are.

One of my old colleagues could easily take renewable energy students from the number line to calculus in 4 months, so about 60 hours.

He could not do that with the Social Science students.

[saveasteading]

2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

could not do that with the Social Science

That is the different way our brains work isn't it? Not motivation.

[SteamyTea]

Just now, saveasteading said:

That is the different way our brains work isn't it? Not motivation.

I am not sure, I am not a social scientist.

Motivation usually comes about by connecting one skill, in another field, to your interest.  I would have thought that knowing how many people were likely to have x-syndrome would have been useful, knowing how much power an hand dryer takes is useful when putting PV on a cafe roof.

[ToughButterCup]

So back to the question: architect or technologist?

 

There is a place for each. 

 

Would members who ask this question in future please spend just a few minutes reading the many posts on the subject. 

 

 

 

Nice quiet fireside reading.

[Markuz]

On 23/07/2023 at 20:37, ToughButterCup said:

So back to the question: architect or technologist?

 

There is a place for each. 

 

Would members who ask this question in future please spend just a few minutes reading the many posts on the subject. 

 

 

 

Nice quiet fireside reading.

Just did.

 

We are in this phase and having spoken to some architechts, they have ruled themselves out saying things like: oh it will be around 20k or reading articles saying it is £4000 per square meter!

 

So when we are looking at a simple design, why would i want an expensive architect plus a structural engineer and someone else drawing all the required drawings .

[saveasteading]

6 hours ago, Markuz said:

why would i want an expensive architect plus a structural engineer

Because you want novelty and a statement.

Or because there are challenges or opportunities on your plot.

 

If you want none of that, buy a standard kit house, with no changes. Rooms may be small, but it may be just right for you.

Also it will be a proven design and everything should simply slot into place.

[mjc55]

Just came across this thread and found it interesting.

 

For the record, I retrained as an Architectural Technologist from 2009 to 2012 at UWE having spent a long time in IT.  I had always had an interest in Architecture (having wanted to be an Architect from a young age only to be dissuaded by the careers teacher in the 70's) and we had always worked to varying degrees on our own houses.

 

I stopped working in IT in 2005 and spent the next 4 years renovating a couple of houses (until the recession hit).   When I say renovating I did nearly all the work, only the dark art of plastering and large scale brickwork was left to someone else.  It was at that point I decided to scratch the itch that had been with me since I was about 8 and went back to Uni to study AT.  I really enjoyed the course, and being in my 50's meant that I didn't have the callowness of youth and was happy to take full part in my course.

 

I then spent 10 years or so working as an AT, working on relatively small scale extensions in our locality in Wiltshire.  I had been self employed in most of my IT years and so the thought of going to work for someone else didn't appeal.

 

So to the question in hand!  I am of the view that you just cannot generalise in this arena.  Titles play a part, education is not the same for AT as for Architectural courses, and as in any profession there are good and bad.  What I would say is that my experience at UWE taught me that once the basics were taught in the first year (where the AT and Architectural degree students were taught together) that the courses diverged somewhat.  There was a degree of pragmatism and practicality that was taught to us as AT students that gradually began to fall away in the Architecture courses, to the point that when looking at the Part II and III degree shows at the end of the course I was actually angry at what I saw.

 

I suppose that there is no right or wrong in this discussion, its buyer beware in reality.  Take your time in assessing the professional that you are going to use, look for and ask for examples of their work.  The actual relationship with the designer is very important and like someone further up the thread said, one of the first things I said to anyone that took me on is that we wont necessarily agree on designs, it is an iterative process and as much as anything else I was there to guide people through the minefield of design to reach something that was as close to their desires as possible but was also possible both from a financial and technical standpoint.  Some would come with plenty of ideas and others had no idea and simply left it up to me.

 

One other thing to add is regarding titles!  I spent so much time trying to disabuse clients that I was an architect, I was always very upfront about what I was qualified to do.  On a scale of importance titles rank low, and as long as someone is not trying to pull the wool over their eyes with regard their qualifications then I think is low down the priority list of things to look for.

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> why would i want an expensive architect plus a structural engineer and someone else drawing all the required drawings

 

IMO you want an architect for ‘magic’, SE to make the judgements and calcs on construction methods and techniques and a detail person to worry the insulation, damp, ventilation, rain screen, BC regs etc. Anyone can do the drawings if they understand what they need to draw. That could be one person or four, or more. Maybe a planning consultant too.

[Jane W]

I have read this and similar threads with interest as we are looking for a professional to help us with our project. Having spoken to a variety of professionals recently I can only say that it feels like a minefield.

For me there is a personal bias which is based almost solely and unfairly on my experience of working alongside an architecture graduate (1st class honours!) who could not get basic measurements of a building correct, had little understanding of massing and no concept of budget whatsoever. He could however produce a lovely impression of a building and talk through architectural styles.

When we then looked for an architect for our extension and remodel a few years later I ran for the hills when, after impressing upon him that the build MUST be on or below the maximum budget, he said his job was to 'challenge limitations like that' and to show us what might be possible if we stretched our budget...A very experienced professional who did not understand our very important constraints. 

So I am at this point in my 1st self build project. I have 'scribbled' a few designs on scraps of paper which fulfill pretty much everything I am realistically hoping for on this small site and finite budget. I have an interest in drawing designs and limited knowledge of the basics. 

I have spoken with Architects, technologists, technicians, designers and a BCO turned designer. Some have provided quotes and some would like to visit my site before quoting. Some quotes are between £1000 and £2000 while others are well over £10000. 

Decisions are difficult and I haven't made a decision on this yet but many are not exactly like for like quotes so even just comparing price is difficult. 

I have ruled out very expensive quotes because the compromises in terms of building our home within the remaining budget are too big, they would eat into the contingency before ground is broken.

It is a shame that choosing and hiring the right professional is so fraught with uncertainty and confusion.

Sometimes making the decision without any thought or knowledge might be a much simpler way forward!

 

 

[Iceverge]

There are three types of architects I can think of. 

 

The first, abrasive genius megalomaniacs, who design mega ego palaces, with teams of engineers stressing about how the thing stays up.  Occasionally you end up with something remarkable like a Sydney opera house. Invariably timelines and budgets are constraints to be dismissed in the pursuit of greatness. (This, in my experience is where architecture education is solely aimed, which is what probably explain the second type)

 

The second type who aspire to be the first but lack the brain power. They'll make beautiful renders and design house that the neighbours will say "wow the Jones used a flash Architect" . They spend all their time on social media promoting themselves, design roofs that will leak, bankrupt normal punters, wind up the planners, are too lazy to dig into details and outsource anything mildly technical. Copy and paste drawings from the Kingspan Rep who took them out for a round of golf  Frustrate builders who insultingly don't have the ability to read their mind. Often they get fired half way through a project where they blame everyone else for the overruns and chaos other than themselves. 

 

The third type. Not an egotistic, more lightly to be in jeans and a tee shirt than a turtleneck. They generally don't need to advertise much as they have as many word of mouth clients as they can take on. They understand the planners and how to guide your project through with minimal fuss. They'll be realistic about budgets, recommend reliable builders.  Importantly, they'll have that magic quality, of being able to blend the technicalities of a sound, practical house with harmony and flare that will be missed by someone of a solely more mechanical disposition.  Someone who can work both sides of their brain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Iceverge

[Iceverge]

How do you find them.

 

Forget Google, go on your local planning portal and trawl through the lists of applications in your area for similar projects. It is time consuming. Make a list of a few of the architects you like. Read their interactions with the planners, if you can. It'll give a good view of who actually "gets" how the systems works. It's amazing how many don't. Knock on doors and get a report from the owners. 

 

Once you have a short list ring them for a quick chat to see if you actually can work with them. Pay one or two to do a rough sketch of their ideas with your budget etc in mind and you should be fairly close to a decision. 

 

Honestly, it would be easier to find a new spouse!

 

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Iceverge

[saveasteading]

I showed this conversation to a family member. Architect capital A and contractor.

 

Agreed completely with @Alan Ambrose.

An @Icevergetype 3 fairly obviously. 

 

You are right. Finding the right one for yourself isn't easy, and the wrong ones are easier to find, being better self publicists.