YALANCT (Yet Another Loxone And Network Cabling Thread)

[joth]

37 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Nearly all LED tape needs to be run with CV though, so depends on fittings..

indeed, it's largely the fact I'm very happy with centrally located CV dimmers for LED strips  that makes me which I'd done that with all the CC fittings too. In fact I did with 8 circuits that needed "remote" drivers and they work great. Mains dimming felt better at the time, both easier to project manage (it looks like a normal install to main contractor and sparky) and more future flexible. But the quality and efficiency and quality of light by  removing the mains element is very attractive. Only snag with CC drivers is they sometimes need >24V -- especially if you want to double or triple up fittings on one channel due to series wiring. So a tiny bit of me thinks having the Loxone PSAB and hanging the CC circuits direct from the 36V battery would be elegant, if it doesn't completely fry the charging logic. 

 

If keeping with mains, I'd do Dali like you.

 

(And massive apols to Thorfun I know this debate spins you in circles  )

[Thorfun]

1 minute ago, joth said:

(And massive apols to Thorfun I know this debate spins you in circles  )

please don't apologise and please don't stop the discussions! If I even glean one nugget from the conversations I'll be happy and it'll all be worth it. 🙂 

[Thorfun]

ps. I'm not changing my main lighting to 24V no matter what you all say. 😛 

[Rob99]

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

I'm not changing my main lighting to 24V no matter what you all say. 😛 

In the projects I've been involved with there's always a mixture of mains/24v lighting.

 

Very much a case of one size "doesn't" fit all.

 

 

[Thorfun]

Just now, Rob99 said:

In the projects I've been involved with there's always a mixture of mains/24v lighting.

 

Very much a case of one size "doesn't" fit all.

 

 

that's a fair point

[Dan F]

2 hours ago, joth said:

Only snag with CC drivers is they sometimes need >24V

It depends on the sum of forward voltages of the fittings + the voltage drop.  The drivers I'm using are 230v with 2-42V output.  DC->DC constant current drivers may be available, but they'd slightly less useful in terms of max number of fittings supported and allowable voltage drop in this case.

 

 

 

[Thorfun]

hi all. qq (and this is going to sound very stupid and I 'think' I already know the answer but here goes anyway).

 

with LED strips that have, for example, 12W/m power rating. if they're dimmed I presume that the power usage will drop accordingly. e.g. if you dim to 50% will the power usage be 6W/m?

 

and, follow up question, can you limit the maximum brightness of a strip/light fitting within Loxone? so I could permanently ensure that a 12W/m LED strip never gets pushed up to that maximum when the kids are ******* around with stuff.

[joth]

15 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

with LED strips that have, for example, 12W/m power rating. if they're dimmed I presume that the power usage will drop accordingly. e.g. if you dim to 50% will the power usage be 6W/m?

 

As an approximation, yes this is correct. The PWM at 50% means it spends 50% of its time turned off so the energy used per second is halved.

 

16 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

and, follow up question, can you limit the maximum brightness of a strip/light fitting within Loxone? so I could permanently ensure that a 12W/m LED strip never gets pushed up to that maximum when the kids are ******* around with stuff.

Yes many ways to do this. Assuming the kids don't have access Loxone Config to reprogram everything in the house, you can easily put a limit, or an output scaling factor on each output channel.

 

[Thorfun]

11 minutes ago, joth said:

As an approximation, yes this is correct. The PWM at 50% means it spends 50% of its time turned off so the energy used per second is halved.

 

Yes many ways to do this. Assuming the kids don't have access Loxone Config to reprogram everything in the house, you can easily put a limit, or an output scaling factor on each output channel.

 

awesome. thank you. just working through a LED strip spreadsheet so I can calculate power/current values. 

 

need to save money so looking at buying direct from Aliexpress!

[joth]

26 minutes ago, joth said:

Yes many ways to do this. Assuming the kids don't have access Loxone Config to reprogram everything in the house, you can easily put a limit, or an output scaling factor on each output channel.

As an example, a lot of my mains dimming channels I put through a custom function to map 1%-100% brightness output from the lighting controller to 30%-100% brightness at the DMX channel, or whatever the strike value is that causes it to come on, but keeping 0 passed though as 0 so that off really is off on the dimmer. 

 

 

 

[Johnnyire]

On 04/11/2022 at 19:04, andy said:

Can't comment on the vid distribution due to only having a single TV (I know, radical) but maybe my Loxone experience can help here...

 

Firstly, I'd not go for the Loxone occupancy sensor but go for the Faradite instead unless you want the acoustic angle?  Personally I think they are much nicer - they are small, no relay clicks, just put them everywhere

 

On to cabling - I went tree for the Loxone switches, spots and LED strip stuff (spots run from tree based on load, a single tree to each room and branching as you mention would be more than enough and my recommendation) and then ran a separate CAT6 for the Faradite with a couple of cables serving 2 sensors with diff cores (watch digital and analogue input counts on the Loxone end as that escalates!).  I also have all 240v radial obviously routing back to Loxone over 1.5/2.5mm T&E.

 

I was originally going to run T&E to each light switch but didn't bother and I think that was the right decision, switches will move away from needing T&E over time IMO and it's a waste of money/resources.  You can happily run the Touch switches using normal CAT6 (as I am for a couple).

 

I separately ran CAT6a for all my PoE gear e.g. Unifi cameras and AP.  Not strictly required but has worked a charm with some very long runs.

 

Now, what would I have done diff...?  Run more spare cables (CAT6 and T&E) between key areas (for me this would be comms room, utility room, loft and garage) and put in spare twin wall ducts (100mm ones, it's easier to slot insulation down them into slab and for me again this is loft to comms, comms to utility and utility to garage).

 

I ran specifically colour-coded cables which helped too - green for tree and green CAT6 for Faradite, blue for CAT6a PoE, orange for data, etc...

 

On 04/11/2022 at 19:04, andy said:

Can't comment on the vid distribution due to only having a single TV (I know, radical) but maybe my Loxone experience can help here...

 

Firstly, I'd not go for the Loxone occupancy sensor but go for the Faradite instead unless you want the acoustic angle?  Personally I think they are much nicer - they are small, no relay clicks, just put them everywhere

 

On to cabling - I went tree for the Loxone switches, spots and LED strip stuff (spots run from tree based on load, a single tree to each room and branching as you mention would be more than enough and my recommendation) and then ran a separate CAT6 for the Faradite with a couple of cables serving 2 sensors with diff cores (watch digital and analogue input counts on the Loxone end as that escalates!).  I also have all 240v radial obviously routing back to Loxone over 1.5/2.5mm T&E.

 

I was originally going to run T&E to each light switch but didn't bother and I think that was the right decision, switches will move away from needing T&E over time IMO and it's a waste of money/resources.  You can happily run the Touch switches using normal CAT6 (as I am for a couple).

 

I separately ran CAT6a for all my PoE gear e.g. Unifi cameras and AP.  Not strictly required but has worked a charm with some very long runs.

 

Now, what would I have done diff...?  Run more spare cables (CAT6 and T&E) between key areas (for me this would be comms room, utility room, loft and garage) and put in spare twin wall ducts (100mm ones, it's easier to slot insulation down them into slab and for me again this is loft to comms, comms to utility and utility to garage).

 

I ran specifically colour-coded cables which helped too - green for tree and green CAT6 for Faradite, blue for CAT6a PoE, orange for data, etc...

@Andy I think the Faradite is alot nicer looking but am curious if it is an option instead of the loxone flush mounted presence sensor. I guess what I am wondering is, would it be better having a presence senor rather than a motion sensor in areas such as the living room, study room etc. In my halls I hope to use the Faradite sensors. Any advice would be appreciated?

[jack]

On 11/11/2022 at 18:15, joth said:

As an example, a lot of my mains dimming channels I put through a custom function to map 1%-100% brightness output from the lighting controller to 30%-100% brightness at the DMX channel, or whatever the strike value is that causes it to come on, but keeping 0 passed though as 0 so that off really is off on the dimmer. 

 

As well as that, I have quite a few of my downlights set so that they're driven to no more than 80-85%, in an attempt (possibly misguided) to make them last longer.

[Thorfun]

hi all. now I've got my flooded basement under control and it's heating up and drying out I'm back thinking about this subject again. I have calculated my Cat6a requirements so that's all sorted. I've decided to use the Whitewing RGB dimmer. I've calculated my voltage drop for the longest run and I'm good with 1.5mm cable. so, for my RGBW strips I was going to run the attached data sheet Dali 5-core 1.5mm cable.

 

DALI Lighting Cable 05Z1Z1-F Class Cca s1b d2 a1.pdf

 

this ticks my boxes for CPR rating for LSOH/LSZH cable that I'm using throughout. it's more expensive that Eca rated cable but I'm trying to stick to my guns with the ratings for as much of my cable as possible.

 

So, my question is, this cable is perfect for the RGBW led strips, right? I believe that @joth said in another thread that he used the Dali 5-core cable for his LED strips which is what led me to research it.

 

One more question as well, I was planning on using Cat6a for my one-wire runs around the house as well. I know it's really overkill but I think the U/FTP Cat6a would allow better screening than a UTP Cat5e and, tbh, it's not too much more expensive. what did others use for their one-wire controls?

 

And, finally, what cable did people use to 'jumper' within the Loxone cabinet?

[joth]

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

 

So, my question is, this cable is perfect for the RGBW led strips, right? I believe that @joth said in another thread that he used the Dali 5-core cable for his LED strips which is what led me to research it.

Works perfectly for me. One core +24V and the other four for RBGW negative returns.

My wiring scheme, fwiw.

 

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

what did others use for their one-wire controls?

Random mix! Some cat6a, some cat5e, a couple are even on 8 core security flex.

I'm using ESPhome rather than the Loxone 1wire extension fwiw, so if needed can add multiple gateways around the house at very little cost.

 

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

And, finally, what cable did people use to 'jumper' within the Loxone cabinet?

I used trirated cabinet wire from TLC for must things, but stripped out twisted pairs from cat6a cables for anything using the little pushin wago 243-211 blocks that need solid core.

Savvyspaces actually sell tri-rated solid core hookup wire if you want to be completely regs compliant (but the depends what regs your building to, init). I'd probably not bother myself, it's not like the external wires entering the cabinet are tri rated so seems overkill to insist all low current/low power internal wires must be 

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, joth said:

Works perfectly for me. One core +24V and the other four for RBGW negative returns.

My wiring scheme, fwiw.

 

Random mix! Some cat6a, some cat5e, a couple are even on 8 core security flex.

I'm using ESPhome rather than the Loxone 1wire extension fwiw, so if needed can add multiple gateways around the house at very little cost.

 

I used trirated cabinet wire from TLC for must things, but stripped out twisted pairs from cat6a cables for anything using the little pushin wago 243-211 blocks that need solid core.

Savvyspaces actually sell tri-rated solid core hookup wire if you want to be completely regs compliant (but the depends what regs your building to, init). I'd probably not bother myself, it's not like the external wires entering the cabinet are tri rated so seems overkill to insist all low current/low power internal wires must be 

Thank you. Very useful information. 

[Thorfun]

On 24/12/2022 at 15:19, joth said:

I used trirated cabinet wire from TLC for must things, but stripped out twisted pairs from cat6a cables for anything using the little pushin wago 243-211 blocks that need solid core.

Savvyspaces actually sell tri-rated solid core hookup wire if you want to be completely regs compliant (but the depends what regs your building to, init). I'd probably not bother myself, it's not like the external wires entering the cabinet are tri rated so seems overkill to insist all low current/low power internal wires must be 

what thickness trirated? I presume that as it's a short distance within the cabinet voltage drop isn't an issue. but if I'm jumpering mains voltage lighting then I presume I'd need 1.5mm trirated/jumper cable? is a rule of thumb that the jumper cable should be the same thickness as the source cable?

[Dan F]

On 24/12/2022 at 11:56, Thorfun said:

One more question as well, I was planning on using Cat6a for my one-wire runs around the house as well. I know it's really overkill but I think the U/FTP Cat6a would allow better screening than a UTP Cat5e and, tbh, it's not too much more expensive. what did others use for their one-wire controls?

I used a dedicated run in shielded CAT7 and by ensuring i earthed the shielding was able to use more than the recommended 20 devices without any issues.  Earthing the shielding is easier if the CAT cable has a drain wire i found. The initial batch of CAT7 I got from fscable didn't have a drain wire, even though datasheet said it did.

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Dan F said:

I used a dedicated run in shielded CAT7 and by ensuring i earthed the shielding was able to use more than the recommended 20 devices without any issues.  Earthing the shielding is easier if the CAT cable has a drain wire i found. The initial batch of CAT7 I got from fscable didn't have a drain wire, even though datasheet said it did.

I know people have said that they've used Cat7 for the thicker wire but it seems that Cat7 cable is 23AWG the same as Cat6a. so why choose Cat7 over Cat6a?

[Dan F]

On 26/12/2022 at 11:57, Thorfun said:

what thickness trirated? I presume that as it's a short distance within the cabinet voltage drop isn't an issue.

Correct, also a lot of it is is likely to be 230v anyway.

 

On 26/12/2022 at 11:57, Thorfun said:

but if I'm jumpering mains voltage lighting then I presume I'd need 1.5mm trirated/jumper cable? is a rule of thumb that the jumper cable should be the same thickness as the source cable?

For the tri-rated cable it comes down to max current.  While tri-rated supports higher current/temperatures than most cables it is wise to leave a decent about of headroom, also because you are suppsed to derate max current where wires are bunched up (as they often are in a cabinet).  How much current each cable has will also depend on how you wire things up within the cabinet i.e. if you distribute power from a power distirbution block or daisy-chain.

 

I used a mix o 0.75mm2, 1.0mm2 and 1.5mm2

- 0.75mm2 for DC (this is all low current though, as all my lighting drivers are outside panel)
- 1.0mm2 for almost all 230v runs, including blinds, dimmers, UFH, towel rails (I used power distribution though, so no single run was more than a few amps)

- 1.5.mm2 from RCBO's to power distribution and any higher current runs.

- CAT7 twisted pair for Loxone tree.

 

See page 3 of https://www.doncastercables.com/product-documents/TRI-RATED.pdf.  I think I used 1mm2 for anything under like 8A, and 1.5m2 for anything that might be a bit higher.  No reason not to use 1.5mm2 everywhere either, I just had a bunch of 1mm2 that my electician provided to use.

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Dan F

[Johnnyire]

On 24/12/2022 at 15:19, joth said:

Works perfectly for me. One core +24V and the other four for RBGW negative returns.

My wiring scheme, fwiw.

 

Random mix! Some cat6a, some cat5e, a couple are even on 8 core security flex.

I'm using ESPhome rather than the Loxone 1wire extension fwiw, so if needed can add multiple gateways around the house at very little cost.

 

I used trirated cabinet wire from TLC for must things, but stripped out twisted pairs from cat6a cables for anything using the little pushin wago 243-211 blocks that need solid core.

Savvyspaces actually sell tri-rated solid core hookup wire if you want to be completely regs compliant (but the depends what regs your building to, init). I'd probably not bother myself, it's not like the external wires entering the cabinet are tri rated so seems overkill to insist all low current/low power internal wires must be 

Can you explain the difference in that 5 core 1.5mm and the loxone cable?

[joth]

20 hours ago, Johnnyire said:

Can you explain the difference in that 5 core 1.5mm and the loxone cable?

You mean Loxone Tree cable?

5 core 1.5mm2 flex has all five cores the same diameter. So good for power delivery (or Dali lighting)

Tree has 2 cores at 1.5mm2 and 4 skinny wires wrapped up as twisted pairs. So mix of power and data only wires. 

[Johnnyire]

3 hours ago, joth said:

You mean Loxone Tree cable?

5 core 1.5mm2 flex has all five cores the same diameter. So good for power delivery (or Dali lighting)

Tree has 2 cores at 1.5mm2 and 4 skinny wires wrapped up as twisted pairs. So mix of power and data only wires. 

Yeah to the tree cable, thanks

[Thorfun]

evening all. I have another question about Loxone if you would be so kind to indulge me.

 

we have a garage and a room above the garage which will be my wife's work studio. I'm planning/thinking on making the garage and room above an 'annexe' from the main house with regards to power and lighting. my reasoning is that I can run a single beefy cable to take 3-phases from the main house to the garage for future EV charging and also if we ever want to airbnb or rent it or use it as a granny-annexe then it'll have it's own CU and power etc. and then the cable runs to the sockets, lights etc will be short rather than running all the way from the plant room.

 

firstly, is this a good idea? or is it complicating things and adding extra expense with a second CU, beefy 3-phase cable, network rack and second Loxone miniserver etc.

 

secondly, if I were to go this route, what cable would I need to run to add a second Loxone mini-server so the 'annexe' can be controlled?

 

another reason for doing it this way is I'm not ready to first fix the electrics in the garage/studio and running a beefy cable now will allow me to do the electrics/lights/network etc at a later date.

 

am I bonkers? should I just get it all first fixed now and run it all from the plant room?

[joth]

15 hours ago, Thorfun said:

evening all. I have another question about Loxone if you would be so kind to indulge me.

 

we have a garage and a room above the garage which will be my wife's work studio. I'm planning/thinking on making the garage and room above an 'annexe' from the main house with regards to power and lighting. my reasoning is that I can run a single beefy cable to take 3-phases from the main house to the garage for future EV charging and also if we ever want to airbnb or rent it or use it as a granny-annexe then it'll have it's own CU and power etc. and then the cable runs to the sockets, lights etc will be short rather than running all the way from the plant room.

 

firstly, is this a good idea? or is it complicating things and adding extra expense with a second CU, beefy 3-phase cable, network rack and second Loxone miniserver etc.

 

secondly, if I were to go this route, what cable would I need to run to add a second Loxone mini-server so the 'annexe' can be controlled?

 

another reason for doing it this way is I'm not ready to first fix the electrics in the garage/studio and running a beefy cable now will allow me to do the electrics/lights/network etc at a later date.

 

am I bonkers? should I just get it all first fixed now and run it all from the plant room?

 

FWIW I think this is fairly independent of your Loxone wiring design. It's perfectly feasible to have one Loxone miniserver control 2 different areas like this. 

The main constraints are:

- if you're having mains dimming then obv a single phase dimmer can only work for lights on that phase.  But this applies to a single building with multiphase, regardless of the annexe

- if you want the annexe lights on circuits from the annexe CU, they'll need their own mains dimmer or relay board.

- if you have one miniserver control multiple dimmers, you need to respect the line lengths for the control protocol (Loxone Link or DMX), and take care about accidentally exporting 'earth' between buildings via the bus shield or dedicated earth.

 

 

To the question, assuming the annexe isn't miles away, the main benefit of the sub-main approach you propose is it minimizes penetrations in the main house airtightness layer. Will the annexe habitable rooms have their own airtightness / thermal envelope, or part of the house?

 

FWIW I did something similar in reverse (DNO meter head in garage, SWA feed from their to a "sub main" in the house). I found no dimming required in the garage (it has garage + outdoor lights) so I just use simple shelly devices for the garage, controlled from Loxone that lives in the AV cupboard in the house. (Shelly make dimmers too, so I could extend the principle, although I hate using wifi to control "main" living areas for reliability reasons. In the garage I have a hard-wired switch to override the state in the shelly even if wifi is down)

 

 

BTW if seriously thinking about a granny-annexe, consider potential future accessibility needs if putting it upstairs above the garage.

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by joth

[Thorfun]

44 minutes ago, joth said:

 

FWIW I think this is fairly independent of your Loxone wiring design. It's perfectly feasible to have one Loxone miniserver control 2 different areas like this. 

The main constraints are:

- if you're having mains dimming then obv a single phase dimmer can only work for lights on that phase.  But this applies to a single building with multiphase, regardless of the annexe

- if you want the annexe lights on circuits from the annexe CU, they'll need their own mains dimmer or relay board.

- if you have one miniserver control multiple dimmers, you need to respect the line lengths for the control protocol (Loxone Link or DMX), and take care about accidentally exporting 'earth' between buildings via the bus shield or dedicated earth.

 

 

To the question, assuming the annexe isn't miles away, the main benefit of the sub-main approach you propose is it minimizes penetrations in the main house airtightness layer. Will the annexe habitable rooms have their own airtightness / thermal envelope, or part of the house?

 

FWIW I did something similar in reverse (DNO meter head in garage, SWA feed from their to a "sub main" in the house). I found no dimming required in the garage (it has garage + outdoor lights) so I just use simple shelly devices for the garage, controlled from Loxone that lives in the AV cupboard in the house. (Shelly make dimmers too, so I could extend the principle, although I hate using wifi to control "main" living areas for reliability reasons. In the garage I have a hard-wired switch to override the state in the shelly even if wifi is down)

 

 

BTW if seriously thinking about a granny-annexe, consider potential future accessibility needs if putting it upstairs above the garage.

 

thanks for the response. the studio will be run on the same single phase as the main house, tbh, as will the garage. the 3-phase cable will be there in-case I ever get a 3-phase smart meter and decide to purchase 3-phase EV chargers. probably unlikely but if I'm running a cable now then I might as well make sure it can do 3P if required.

 

48 minutes ago, joth said:

if you want the annexe lights on circuits from the annexe CU, they'll need their own mains dimmer or relay board.

yes, and this is what's concerning me for extra costs. a second mini-server running the studio with separate relays/dimmers/24V LED controllers etc. so, basically, a mini Loxone setup that is 'slave' to the main setup in the basement comms room. I think I'm setting myself up for a fall here if I do go this route!

 

maybe I just need to pull my finger out and get the studio ready for first fix so the sparky can do it all at the same time and run everything from the main comms room in the basement. simplify it all. I can always still run a cable to take 3-phase from the main comms room to a garage CU for EV charging.