YALANCT (Yet Another Loxone And Network Cabling Thread)

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, jack said:

The main thing I think I got wrong with Loxone wiring is the termination of cables as they come into the Loxone enclosure. What I should have done is terminated every cable on a massive patch panel (possibly outside the enclosure) and then run double insulated twisted pairs from that to the various inlets and outlets. Instead, the wiring is a rat's nest of Cat 6a cable squeezed into the cable guides. 

yeah, I read about this is another thread where @Rob99 talked about using 100 blocks in an enclosure external to the Loxone enclosure. seems like a very neat way of dealing with all the cables.

 

whoops! should've read Rob's reply on this thread before posting! 🤦‍♂️

Edited November 5, 2022 by Thorfun
did a boo-boo by not reading all threads before responding

[jack]

2 hours ago, Rob99 said:

This one  does 300 pairs (so 75 cables) for about £40. Yes, it's designed for cat5e but there's only a 0.06mm2 difference between 24awg cat5e and 23awg cat6/6a. Much cheaper to do it this way than using patch panels or the Weidmuller 8x8 DIN rail blocks.

 

Ah yes, that's exactly the type I was looking at. I only learned these even existed about a year ago when I was helping my electrician with some rewiring in the cabinet (new dimmer) and realised how difficult/ridiculous it was having so much wiring cluttering it up. My electrician did a fantastic job overall, but I think we missed a trick on this particular point.

 

Edited to add:

 

2 hours ago, Rob99 said:

Yes, it's designed for cat5e but there's only a 0.06mm2 difference between 24awg cat5e and 23awg cat6/6a. 

 

Perhaps the cheaper outlet I was trying to terminate to was Cat 5 (not 5e) then? Whatever it was, I couldn't reliably punch the Cat 6a wire down into it. Good to know Cat 5e 110 block will work, thanks.

[Thorfun]

morning all. I've been thinking long and hard about my cabling and, as I started to draw it all out, it has raised another question. if I'm daisy-chaining Cat6a cable for tree devices/retractive switches does the last device on that chain need terminating with a resistor? e.g.

 

in the drawing below I have drawn a 12m green cat6a cable to the Tree Touch switch at the entrance to the utility room and then daisy chained it up to a Tree presence sensor, then to a retractive switch, on to another tree presence sensor, down to another retractive switch and then finally through the wall to a retractive switch. 

 

 

will that work? and is there any sort of resistor termination required at that final retractive switch?

 

this is the idea for every room. one cable from the comms room to the Tree switch and then daisy-chaining from there.

 

[Rob99]

There's no termination resistor required for tree cabling. Main thing to remember is that you can't have the tree bus connected as a closed loop anywhere.

 

Also, for every retractice switch (assuming it's a single pole push type) you will need to feed it +24v (from orange tree wiring) and then take the return from the switch back to the panel as a digital input using one core of the cat6a cable. This means you can have a maximum of 4 digital inputs (e.g. retractive switches or door contacts) per cat6a if it is used as a tree cable but that you also then have no spare cores in case of any wiring issues later (e.g. plasterboard screw through cable!!)

 

I love that you have a dog shower in your boot room.......

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Rob99 said:

There's no termination resistor required for tree cabling. Main thing to remember is that you can't have the tree bus connected as a closed loop anywhere.

awesome. not planning on closing any of these Loxone Cat6a loops.

 

1 hour ago, Rob99 said:

Also, for every retractice switch (assuming it's a single pole push type) you will need to feed it +24v (from orange tree wiring) and then take the return from the switch back to the panel as a digital input using one core of the cat6a cable. This means you can have a maximum of 4 digital inputs (e.g. retractive switches or door contacts) per cat6a if it is used as a tree cable but that you also then have no spare cores in case of any wiring issues later (e.g. plasterboard screw through cable!!)

ok. think I understand this and I'm pretty sure that I won't exceed the 4 digital inputs per cable run but will double check my drawings. I think that if I have more than 2 I'll just run another cable. Also, I'll be doing the boarding so will know where the cables are and will take my time to ensure cables aren't hit! 🤞

 

1 hour ago, Rob99 said:

I love that you have a dog shower in your boot room.......

yeah, that was part of our brief to the architect, big boot/utility room with a dog shower. he thought the size of the utility was excessive but having lived in a house with a shoebox utility room we wanted space in this one! planning a second dog next year as well so the shower will get lots of use after muddy woodland walks. at the moment our dog gets hosed down outside and when it gets really cold I wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of a cold hose pipe so why should we subject our dogs to that if we don't have to! 😉 

[jack]

8 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

yeah, that was part of our brief to the architect, big boot/utility room with a dog shower. he thought the size of the utility was excessive but having lived in a house with a shoebox utility room we wanted space in this one! planning a second dog next year as well so the shower will get lots of use after muddy woodland walks. at the moment our dog gets hosed down outside and when it gets really cold I wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of a cold hose pipe so why should we subject our dogs to that if we don't have to! 😉 

 

Wow, spooky. We've lived in our house for nearly 7 years, and I yesterday referred to the shower in the boot room as the "dog shower" for the first time.

 

On the topic of dog washing, I wish we'd followed through on our original plan for a warm water tap outside for the dog. It's all well and good rinsing the dog down in the shower, but the amount of mud, sand, and other horrible stuff that comes off ours when we've gone for a walk in the wet is ridiculous. It gets stuck in the drain and generally makes for a fair bit of work cleaning up after the dog's been rinsed down.

 

If you haven't considered it and can still run the pipework, an outside warm-water station with hand shower attachment (even just a standard garden hose type) lets you rinse the worst of the crud off outside.

 

I'm with you on large utility rooms. We thought we were being overly generous with ours, but having lived with it for a while, it would definitely be better if it were larger.

[Thorfun]

15 minutes ago, jack said:

 

Wow, spooky. We've lived in our house for nearly 7 years, and I yesterday referred to the shower in the boot room as the "dog shower" for the first time.

 

On the topic of dog washing, I wish we'd followed through on our original plan for a warm water tap outside for the dog. It's all well and good rinsing the dog down in the shower, but the amount of mud, sand, and other horrible stuff that comes off ours when we've gone for a walk in the wet is ridiculous. It gets stuck in the drain and generally makes for a fair bit of work cleaning up after the dog's been rinsed down.

 

If you haven't considered it and can still run the pipework, an outside warm-water station with hand shower attachment (even just a standard garden hose type) lets you rinse the worst of the crud off outside.

 

I'm with you on large utility rooms. We thought we were being overly generous with ours, but having lived with it for a while, it would definitely be better if it were larger.

interesting point about the mud in the shower trap. I hadn't thought of that. the shower tray will be raised a bit so I wonder if I can have a filter under the shower plug hole before going in to the trap that is easily removable for cleaning out? or some form of catchpit/sump so that the water from the shower goes in to that first (under the tray) and then drains out to a normal trap?

 

I'll run the outside warm water tap past the mrs and see what she says although I'd rather find a solution to deal with the mud in the shower rather than have to wash him down outside and then put him in the shower. definitely food for thought though, thanks.

[Thorfun]

when daisy chaining the Cat6a cable how does one join the pairs that aren't being used? so obviously, the tree pairs (green/green&white, orange/orange&white) go in one device and then on to the next but I'll need to join the blue/blue&white, brown/brown&white to carry those on up the daisy chain for the digital inputs from the retractive switches.

 

what's the best way to do that?

[jack]

9 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

the shower tray will be raised a bit so I wonder if I can have a filter under the shower plug hole before going in to the trap that is easily removable for cleaning out? or some form of catchpit/sump so that the water from the shower goes in to that first (under the tray) and then drains out to a normal trap?

 

I have one of those bellows-type toilet plungers in the downstairs shower, and just give the drain a good plunge now and again. Used properly, it pushes everything through the trap, even sand and small stones. The really annoyance is rinsing down the tray and surrounding walls after she's been rinsed down. 

 

7 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

I'll run the outside warm water tap past the mrs and see what she says although I'd rather find a solution to deal with the mud in the shower rather than have to wash him down outside and then put him in the shower. definitely food for thought though, thanks.

 

If I had an outdoor tap, I doubt I'd put the dog in the shower afterwards very often.

 

At the moment, we need to rinse her off most days when she comes back from walk due to how wet and muddy it is. You shouldn't wash (in the sense of using shampoo) your dog anywhere near that frequently. At a guess, ours is washed properly less than 1 in 10 times.

 

 

[joth]

39 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

when daisy chaining the Cat6a cable how does one join the pairs that aren't being used? so obviously, the tree pairs (green/green&white, orange/orange&white) go in one device and then on to the next but I'll need to join the blue/blue&white, brown/brown&white to carry those on up the daisy chain for the digital inputs from the retractive switches.

 

what's the best way to do that?

I used GPO gel filled crimp connectors, quick to use and worked very well.

https://cpc.farnell.com/tuk/xjya-100/gel-crimp-2-wire-orange-capped/dp/CN22298?

 

[Thorfun]

52 minutes ago, jack said:

At the moment, we need to rinse her off most days when she comes back from walk due to how wet and muddy it is. You shouldn't wash (in the sense of using shampoo) your dog anywhere near that frequently. At a guess, ours is washed properly less than 1 in 10 times.

yeah, sorry. when I meant 'shower' it was just to really rinse him off and then we can leave him in the utility room to dry. I wasn't talking about shampooing him every day! 

[jack]

11 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

yeah, sorry. when I meant 'shower' it was just to really rinse him off and then we can leave him in the utility room to dry. I wasn't talking about shampooing him every day! 

 

Okay, I was confused by you saying you were going to wash him down outside and then put him in the shower. If I had an outdoor tap, I'd just skip the shower bit entirely and avoid the clean-up.

[Rob99]

3 hours ago, joth said:

I used GPO gel filled crimp connectors, quick to use and worked very well.

https://cpc.farnell.com/tuk/xjya-100/gel-crimp-2-wire-orange-capped/dp/CN22298?

 

I'll second the use of gel crimps. Cheap and very easy to use, you don't even need to strip the cable.

[Thorfun]

3 hours ago, jack said:

 

Okay, I was confused by you saying you were going to wash him down outside and then put him in the shower. If I had an outdoor tap, I'd just skip the shower bit entirely and avoid the clean-up.

yeah. that's a fair point and you're right! if I did have a warm shower outside I wouldn't then shower him inside. sorry for the confusion.

[TonyT]

£60 gets you a external shower  fitting designed for camper vans with a hinged cover and removable hose that adjusts temp.

 

a couple of double check valves, isolation valves, drain valves later and you have a dog shower.

 

got all the bits just waiting for the motivation.

[Thorfun]

5 minutes ago, TonyT said:

£60 gets you a external shower  fitting designed for camper vans with a hinged cover and removable hose that adjusts temp.

 

a couple of double check valves, isolation valves, drain valves later and you have a dog shower.

 

got all the bits just waiting for the motivation.

I guess the benefit of using an indoor dog shower is that if it's raining or really cold I don't have to stand in the rain/cold to wash the dog(s) down! 😉 

[jack]

8 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

I guess the benefit of using an indoor dog shower is that if it's raining or really cold I don't have to stand in the rain/cold to wash the dog(s) down! 😉 

 

So plumb for the outdoor shower and decide later. The cost of the plumbing is a few quid at this stage.

 

If it's cold and wet outside, you've already been walking in it with the dog for God knows how long. A few seconds extra for a quick rinse isn't going to hurt you. 

 

Worst case, you have the indoor shower anyway, so use it when you want to. 

[Dan F]

18 hours ago, Rob99 said:

I'll second the use of gel crimps. Cheap and very easy to use, you don't even need to strip the cable.

Used these too. Got them and tool from TLC https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/GPJC2C.html.  Mostly 2-way, but did use 3-way in a few places for some reason.

[joth]

16 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Used these too. Got them and tool from TLC https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/GPJC2C.html.  Mostly 2-way, but did use 3-way in a few places for some reason.

Don't forget to purchase the matching crimp tool!

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/GPJCCT.html

 

It'd be totally outrageous to use a totally standard set of needle nose pliers to crimp them, wouldn't it 🤫

 

[Dan F]

3 hours ago, joth said:

It'd be totally outrageous to use a totally standard set of needle nose pliers to crimp them, wouldn't it 🤫

I actually got the crimp tool 😀. If you are doing a few of them not worth it, but when doing the whole house it is marginally better then a pair of piers.  Just means you don't have to be as careful not to apply too much force, also helps ensure even pressure on both sides and that the far-side gets fully crimped.

[Thorfun]

another question if I may.

 

the kids rooms have planned RGBW Led strips mounted around the edge of the ceiling. I was discussing with the electrician today where the drivers would be and I said I'd probably prefer to put them in the Loxone cabinet and drive the led strips from there. if I'm doing this I presume I need to run 5-core 1mm cable from the Loxone cabinet to the bedrooms to a point where the RGBW led strips will join the cable?

 

just trying to find out if this will work before I buy a drum of 5-core cable.

 

I also presume that one of these https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/rgbw-24v-dimmer-tree.html per LED strip to control them via Loxone? or could I use the DMX extension to control them using a DMX RGBW dimmer? (can you tell I'm a little out of my depth with electrics?)

[Rob99]

I have the RGBW dimmers in my Loxone cabinet and then run a 3C&E and a T&E to each light circuit to give me the 5 cores needed. I did this a few years ago before Loxone launched the compact dimmers and if I were doing it now I would definitely use the compact dimmer trees located remotely near the LED strips. You then only need a single T&E (for the 24v) and a cat6 tree connection to each dimmer.

 

If you have the dimmers in the cabinet you need at least 1mm2 cores to the LED strips.

[Dan F]

14 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

just trying to find out if this will work before I buy a drum of 5-core cable.

Depends on length and wattage of the strips as you need to keep voltage drop under control.  Do you know length of feed, length of LED and wattage of LED strip?

I initially wanted to wire everything back to plant room, but this wasn't practical so I have some going back to plant room and then various locations around the house that have a 230v+DALI feed to them to allow for more localized drivers.

 

14 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

I also presume that one of these https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/rgbw-24v-dimmer-tree.html per LED strip to control them via Loxone?

Yes, or DMX drivers or DALI drivers etc.   I'm not using any of the Loxone drivers as all downlight are DALI so it makes sense to have all lighting DALI-based.  Also from what I remember the PWM frequency of the Loxone kit wasn't great.  Lots of ways to do this.

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Dan F

[Thorfun]

11 minutes ago, Rob99 said:

I have the RGBW dimmers in my Loxone cabinet and then run a 3C&E and a T&E to each light circuit to give me the 5 cores needed. I did this a few years ago before Loxone launched the compact dimmers and if I were doing it now I would definitely use the compact dimmer trees located remotely near the LED strips. You then only need a single T&E (for the 24v) and a cat6 tree connection to each dimmer.

 

If you have the dimmers in the cabinet you need at least 1mm2 cores to the LED strips.

this is interesting Rob. I presume you mean these https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/rgbw-24v-compact-dimmer-tree.html?

 

so this can go in the loft void above their bedrooms with a single Cat6A cable from the above linked compact dimmer back to the Loxone cabinet and a 1mm² or 1.5mm² cable from the above linked dimmer to the RGBW led strip?

 

that seems easier than running 5-core 1mm² from the loxone cabinet to the LED strip.

[Thorfun]

14 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Depends on length and wattage of the strips as you need to keep voltage drop under control.  Do you know length of feed, length of LED and wattage of LED strip?

length will be about 12m from Loxone cabinet to both RGBW Led strip ends. 

LED length will be about 10m in total

I don't know the wattage of the LED strip as I've not got that far yet!

 

I could use remote drivers as there is a void above each bedroom in the roof eaves where I could put the driver and it could be accessible for replacement on failure which is why the solution @Rob99 is suggesting is quite appealing. it doesn't use Tree cable and I'm buying an excessively large amount of Cat6A for automation already so could incorporate another couple of runs easily