YALANCT (Yet Another Loxone And Network Cabling Thread)

[Thorfun]

11 hours ago, Dan F said:

 

The ones I used are only 50mm for L+N+PE blocks  Wondering what you are using these 6-way ones for?

 

I'm using them for RGBW and CCT LED strips. 2 x TBs for each RGBW and 1 x TB for each CCT strip.

[Thorfun]

11 hours ago, Rob99 said:

The triple height Wago 2002-3201 that I use will fit in a standard depth FA enclosure if you mount the DIN rail directly on the back with no spacers. The last LXN5 I built was fine with these Wago's and there should be clearance of about 10mm behind the front cover. Also, you can gain another 7.5mm of depth by swapping the standard 15mm deep DIN rail for a 7.5mm deep one if necessary

 

11 hours ago, Rob99 said:

My triple height Wago's are 70mm.

thanks for pointing this out! that'll teach me to just read the product specs rather than look at the diagram.

 

 

the 81.3mm measurement must include the label holder.

 

I'll just drop the second rail down to the back as well then and be done with it. The Weidmuller ones are only 5mm shallower.

 

@Dan F, out of interest, which triple decks from Weidmuller are you using that are 50mm? might be that for the few I'm using I could get away without dropping that rail if I switch to Weidmuller TBs for the triple height ones

[Dan F]

Looks like the Weidmuller depths include the DIN rail though, whereas the Wago specs exclude it.

 

29 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

@Dan F, out of interest, which triple decks from Weidmuller are you using that are 50mm? might be that for the few I'm using I could get away without dropping that rail if I switch to Weidmuller TBs for the triple height ones

 

They aren't triple decks, rather these L+N+PE blocks (that use cabinet earth): https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/installation-terminal-block-aitb.html

 

Do you need those label holders, don't the blocks support any smaller numbered labelleing on the blocks themselves?

[Thorfun]

2 hours ago, Dan F said:

Looks like the Weidmuller depths include the DIN rail though, whereas the Wago specs exclude it.

 

 

They aren't triple decks, rather these L+N+PE blocks (that use cabinet earth): https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/installation-terminal-block-aitb.html

 

Do you need those label holders, don't the blocks support any smaller numbered labelleing on the blocks themselves?

ahh....right. gotcha. so, afaik, for my RGBW and CCT strips I need 5 and 3 connections respectively. so to use those L+N+PE blocks I would need 3 per RGBW and 2 per CCT led strip (or 2.5 and 1.5 if I'm splitting a terminal block across 2 different led strips. so even though they would work I would use up more of my precious little space! but I do have the Wago equivalent of those so will see how it all fits and make a decision as to which way to go.

 

I've honestly not looked in to labelling the terminal blocks yet. most of my Wago blocks didn't come with the label holder as they're more expensive, I obviously made a mistake on those blind terminal blocks though as they came with the label holder.

[Rob99]

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

I've honestly not looked in to labelling the terminal blocks yet. most of my Wago blocks didn't come with the label holder as they're more expensive, I obviously made a mistake on those blind terminal blocks though as they came with the label holder.

I've never used the label holders. I just use the standard individual pre-printed number tiles which click into the top of each block. I seem to remember it was a pain to identify the correct wago product reference as there are several different types and most online stores also get confused about which ones fit the 2002 series. I'll have a dig around in my panel build box and check which ones I used.

[Dan F]

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

ahh....right. gotcha. so, afaik, for my RGBW and CCT strips I need 5 and 3 connections respectively. so to use those L+N+PE blocks I would need 3 per RGBW and 2 per CCT led strip (or 2.5 and 1.5 if I'm splitting a terminal block across 2 different led strips. so even though they would work I would use up more of my precious little space! but I do have the Wago equivalent of those so will see how it all fits and make a decision as to which way to go.

 

I've honestly not looked in to labelling the terminal blocks yet. most of my Wago blocks didn't come with the label holder as they're more expensive, I obviously made a mistake on those blind terminal blocks though as they came with the label holder.

 

If your installation wiring is < = 1.5mm2 and you are short of space, why not use the the signall marshelling blocks for LED's.  One 4-level block for each RGBW strip (or two CCT strips) and the interconnected blocks for common anode.  Like this can do up to 7 RGBW strips with 8 blocks, or 15 RGBW strips with 17 blocks (and twice as many CCT).  You could also use 8-level ones, if you wanted things even tighter.   The 4-level ones are 55mm, so might just about work on the second rail, you'd have to check.

 

 

 

[Thorfun]

2 hours ago, Rob99 said:

I've never used the label holders. I just use the standard individual pre-printed number tiles which click into the top of each block. I seem to remember it was a pain to identify the correct wago product reference as there are several different types and most online stores also get confused about which ones fit the 2002 series. I'll have a dig around in my panel build box and check which ones I used.

I didn't have much time to play today but I did lower the top rail and the triple deck blocks do definitely fit.

 

the ones for the blinds though are still proud but I think going to a thinner rail will give enough room.

 

 

also, the double deckers don't really fit with the spacer on the din rail so I would either have to get a thinner rail for the second rail or lower it anyway for the triple decks.

 

 

is there anything in the regulations to stop me from cutting a din rail and making new holes in the cabinet to make a bespoke double decker rail like in the LXN deep cabinets? that way I can have a raised rail (or no rail at all) at the far left of the top rail to allow the 24V light cables to be routed to the second din rail and can also drop the second rail as far as the Whitewing RGBW dimmer so that dimmer isn't dropped to the lower rail.

[Thorfun]

2 hours ago, Dan F said:

 

If your installation wiring is < = 1.5mm2 and you are short of space, why not use the the signall marshelling blocks for LED's.  One 4-level block for each RGBW strip (or two CCT strips) and the interconnected blocks for common anode.  Like this can do up to 7 RGBW strips with 8 blocks, or 15 RGBW strips with 17 blocks (and twice as many CCT).  You could also use 8-level ones, if you wanted things even tighter.   The 4-level ones are 55mm, so might just about work on the second rail, you'd have to check.

 

 

 

do you mean these? https://catalog.weidmueller.com/procat/Product.jsp;jsessionid=0F94826F665AFD18B5F5E5A69B0CDB02?productId=([1267890000])&page=Product

 

it says the depth is 54.5mm and the N/L/PE blocks I have from Wago are only 42.3mm deep and they barely fit on a raised din rail so the 4-way marshalling blocks won't fit without lowering the rail either.

 

 

[Thorfun]

9 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

is there anything in the regulations to stop me from cutting a din rail and making new holes in the cabinet to make a bespoke double decker rail like in the LXN deep cabinets? that way I can have a raised rail (or no rail at all) at the far left of the top rail to allow the 24V light cables to be routed to the second din rail and can also drop the second rail as far as the Whitewing RGBW dimmer so that dimmer isn't dropped to the lower rail.

something like this?

 

 

so cut the din rail short where the 24V incoming cables is labelled? leaves room to route solid copper T&E cables to the second row. I could also do something similar at the other end to put the blinds terminal blocks on the second row which will make room for the basement 230V terminal blocks.

 

[Dan F]

9 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

do you mean these? https://catalog.weidmueller.com/procat/Product.jsp;jsessionid=0F94826F665AFD18B5F5E5A69B0CDB02?productId=([1267890000])&page=Product

 

Yes, same series as the ones you are using for CAT cables, but 4-level.

 

9 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

it says the depth is 54.5mm and the N/L/PE blocks I have from Wago are only 42.3mm deep and they barely fit on a raised din rail so the 4-way marshalling blocks won't fit without lowering the rail either.

 

Right, but if you manage to make things more compect by using these, could you potentially squeeze this onto top rail?

 

You can do whaever you need with the DIN rails.  In fact, you coul have 30% of the second rail setback fo terminal blocks, and the other 60% set-forward.  I did this on my bottom rail, where I wanted RCBO's raised, but my power distirbution blocks set-back.

 

[Thorfun]

5 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Right, but if you manage to make things more compect by using these, could you potentially squeeze this onto top rail?

ahh....good point and I didn't think of that. will do some calculations.

 

6 minutes ago, Dan F said:

You can do whaever you need with the DIN rails.  In fact, you coul have 30% of the second rail setback fo terminal blocks, and the other 60% set-forward.  I did this on my bottom rail, where I wanted RCBO's raised, but my power distirbution blocks set-back.

good to know. I might do something like that then and drop part of the second row as well. it'll be the cheapest option for me at the moment I think and then when I come to fit out the basement I'll hopefully have some money again and can revisit this whole subject and purchase a cabinet extension or something else.

 

thanks for the great advice. no doubt I will update this thread when I've found a solution or have more questions. 🤣

[joth]

When did you purchase the terminal blocks? You have at least 14day money back on them, likely more. I'd be looking at that option myself 

 

[Thorfun]

27 minutes ago, joth said:

When did you purchase the terminal blocks? You have at least 14day money back on them, likely more. I'd be looking at that option myself 

 

it's valid. but after Rob pointed out that the depth wasn't as bad as the physical data stated and looking at the image showing the dimensions of the Wago terminal block I got for the blinds they are actually shallower than the Weidmuller ones at 83.9mm!

 

 

so switching to Weidmuller won't actually help. 🤦‍♂️

 

I think a 7.5mm din rail and some magic with lowering sections should see me through ok. what's the worst that can happen? 🤣

[Thorfun]

https://www.screwfix.com/p/hylec-slotted-top-hat-din-rail-35mm-x-7-5mm-x-1000mm/6461G?kpid=6461G&cm_mmc=Google-_-Datafeed-_-Electrical and Lighting?kpid=KINASEKPID&cm_mmc=Google-_-TOKEN1-_-TOKEN2&gad_source=1&gclsrc=ds&gclsrc=ds

 

£3.29! shouldn't break the bank.

 

I might even get 2 for the top and second rails. 

Edited January 3 by Thorfun

[Dan F]

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

the Wago terminal block I got for the blinds they are actually shallower than the Weidmuller ones at 83.9mm!

 

No, because the Weidmuller depth includes the 7mm of rail.  So it's actually 83.9mm vs. 81mm and Weidmuller wins by 2.9mm. 🙂.   Oops, now I sound like a Weidmuller fan-boy!

 

In terms of labelling, do the blocks not support small clip in lables like these? 

 

I used this kind of thing, along with a lablel-holder per-block of terminals that clips into the top of the (shallower) end brackets to write "Blinds" or "5A lighting" etc.

 

 

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

I think a 7.5mm din rail and some magic with lowering sections should see me through ok. what's the worst that can happen? 🤣

 

Will be bit harder to get blocks on/off any rails that are screwed directly to the back of the panel, but I assume still workable.

 

Edited January 3 by Dan F

[Thorfun]

8 hours ago, Dan F said:

No, because the Weidmuller depth includes the 7mm of rail.  So it's actually 83.9mm vs. 81mm and Weidmuller wins by 2.9mm. 🙂.   Oops, now I sound like a Weidmuller fan-boy!

🤣

 

8 hours ago, Dan F said:

In terms of labelling, do the blocks not support small clip in lables like these? 

I think so. I'll double check the blocks when I'm next working on them

 

8 hours ago, Dan F said:

Will be bit harder to get blocks on/off any rails that are screwed directly to the back of the panel, but I assume still workable.

hadn't thought of that but I also presume it'll still be workable. 

[Rob99]

These are the labels I use

[Thorfun]

On 24/12/2023 at 20:19, joth said:

 

If you have spare 24v channels,  have a bunch of 24V relays or SSRs you can have as interim 

these,  8 channel and cheap as chips

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004133687443.html

 

 

Hi @joth. I bought 2 of these for my blinds to control them from the WW DMX 24V dimmer. they are the ST8-5DA-N versions. am I correct in assuming that the current usage on the WW to trigger the relay is minimal? i can't see anywhere on the specifications what Wattage the relay uses to trigger.

[joth]

The SSR has a very small load on the DC input side. I've never actually measured it but it can't be significant compared to the LED strips 

[Thorfun]

started to finally put all the terminal blocks in. had to move the blind terminal blocks to the 2nd din rail in the end as there just wasn't the room for them on the first rail to also allow for the basement terminal blocks. I'm sure it'll be fine as they're flex rather than rigid cable. and I can run most of the Loxone relay cable up and under the raised din rail that is between the SSRs and blind TBs to save room up the right hand side trunking.

 

 

I've numbered the 230V terminal blocks from right to left which looks a bit weird but it leaves room for expansion for them or the 8-ways if required and can then keep the numbers contiguous.

 

bit frustrated that I now have to buy Weidmuller numbers for those 14 x 8-way blocks. I might just use my label printer though!

[Thorfun]

evening. qq. on the Loxone Relay I'm presuming that there isn't any sort of polarity with the relay outputs and it doesn't matter which way round the live and neutrals are put in? I couldn't see any notation in the data sheet so figure it's just a switch and it doesn't care if it's switching live or neutral.

[joth]

17 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

evening. qq. on the Loxone Relay I'm presuming that there isn't any sort of polarity with the relay outputs and it doesn't matter which way round the live and neutrals are put in? I couldn't see any notation in the data sheet so figure it's just a switch and it doesn't care if it's switching live or neutral.

Correct.

Main thing I do is try and be consistent. You have to decide what makes most sense to yourself really, e.g. unswitched live feed always to the RHS of the enclosure (nearest the "Mains" side of the box), what to do with low voltage inputs, dry contact outputs, etc.

 

[Thorfun]

6 minutes ago, joth said:

Correct.

Main thing I do is try and be consistent. You have to decide what makes most sense to yourself really, e.g. unswitched live feed always to the RHS of the enclosure (nearest the "Mains" side of the box), what to do with low voltage inputs, dry contact outputs, etc.

 

thanks. I made a start in a spare hour I had this evening. I'm pretty sure I'll get quicker at I go along! it's going to take a while though as I only have a few hours a week I can spare on doing this with all the other stuff I have to do but I will get there.

[joth]

Just now, Thorfun said:

thanks. I made a start in a spare hour I had this evening. I'm pretty sure I'll get quicker at I go along! it's going to take a while though as I only have a few hours a week I can spare on doing this with all the other stuff I have to do but I will get there.

if your schedule documentation is good, it can become quite quick to actually lace it up. The thing the slows me down is if I have to keep stopping to think. So long as I can leave the brain mostly disengaged it's quite a relaxing,  almost therapeutic pass-time. Like knitting, I imagine.  Indeed, that's what my wife likened it to. We spent several enjoyable evenings during lockdown stripping and crimping the wiring harness together.

 

[Thorfun]

Just now, joth said:

if your schedule documentation is good, it can become quite quick to actually lace it up. The thing the slows me down is if I have to keep stopping to think. So long as I can leave the brain mostly disengaged it's quite a relaxing,  almost therapeutic pass-time. Like knitting, I imagine.  Indeed, that's what my wife likened it to. We spent several enjoyable evenings during lockdown stripping and crimping the wiring harness together.

 

nice. I do have very extensive schedule documentation so I'm hoping it goes quickly. I can definitely see the benefit of having a second pair of hands to assist.

 

while you're on I have another question for you. in the photo of your cabinet I notice that you use the bootlace ferrules at the Loxone extension end as well as the terminal block end for the tri-rated cable. is there a reason why you don't just put the cable in and screw it down? I understand the need for the ferrules at the terminal block end as it's push-fit so needs to be solid but for screw terminals what's the reasoning behind it?