Dan F Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 1 hour ago, Rob99 said: To achieve the correct connections, the RCBO Live feed goes to the top level and is commoned across all terminals at that level. The RCBO Neutral feed goes to the bottom level and is commoned across all terminals. The Live to each relay goes from the top level out to the relay and returns to the middle level. Circuit connections on the outgoing side are then made at middle level for the switched Live and bottom level for the Neutral. Ah, so this is maybe what @Thorfun was trying to do, but without the necesary 3rd level? I can see this being quite natural when the RCBO's are external, but when RCBO's are in the cabinet it's less natural and you need an additional level. Also, not really practical with blinds/motors. @Thorfun Maybe we confused you, given we've each slightly different approach re: RCBO location and power distribution 😞 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 12 hours ago, Rob99 said: If those are double height terminals on the top DIN rail then you won't be able to use them to distribute power from the RCBO, through the relays and out to the individual circuits as there aren't enough connection points. I use triple height blocks for RCBO fed circuits. The Live connection sequence needs to be....... RCBO >> Terminal Block >> Relay >> Terminal Block >> Circuit. To achieve the correct connections, the RCBO Live feed goes to the top level and is commoned across all terminals at that level. The RCBO Neutral feed goes to the bottom level and is commoned across all terminals. The Live to each relay goes from the top level out to the relay and returns to the middle level. Circuit connections on the outgoing side are then made at middle level for the switched Live and bottom level for the Neutral. Hopefully this might help: right. i get this. but where does the earth from the twin and earth cables go? at the moment i have the terminal blocks that have the earth connecting to the din rail on the outgoing side of the TB. https://www.wago.com/gb/rail-mount-terminal-blocks/multilevel-installation-terminal-block/p/2003-7646 but in your solution that 3rd row just for earthing doesn't exist? i believe you've previously said that you earth somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 10 hours ago, Dan F said: @Thorfun Maybe we confused you, given we've each slightly different approach re: RCBO location and power distribution 😞 it's very possible but it's no problem at all! these things happen on a journey of discovery and mistakes will be made but as long as we learn from them then it's all good. 10 hours ago, Dan F said: I can see this being quite natural when the RCBO's are external, but when RCBO's are in the cabinet it's less natural and you need an additional level. Also, not really practical with blinds/motors. so, let's look at a solution for my current predicament by working backwards. i want the RCBOs to be in the cabinet. i want a single cable from the CU to an isolator/MCB in the Loxone cabinet that feeds RCBOs that feed lighting circuits and the Power supply and Backup for 24V. can i do that with the Wago connectors i already have? if so how? i would rather not have to buy 70 odd new 3-way terminal blocks as that is quite expensive but if that's the only solution then so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob99 Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 6 minutes ago, Thorfun said: i believe you've previously said that you earth somewhere else. Yes, all the earth connections are made with the earth bars fitted to the back plate of the enclosure at the top/bottom. 9 minutes ago, Thorfun said: i want the RCBOs to be in the cabinet. i want a single cable from the CU to an isolator/MCB in the Loxone cabinet that feeds RCBOs that feed lighting circuits and the Power supply and Backup for 24V. can i do that with the Wago connectors i already have? if so how? The main issue I see is that you need a way to distribute the RCBO feed to the relays but without the triple height blocks you can't do this at the terminal block end. It's not an ideal solution but one option would be to take the RCBO feed and loop it across to one side of all of the relays which link to that RCBO so that when you wire the other side of the relay back to the terminal block you are effectively feeding switched live into each terminal block. Your neutral would then be commoned across the terminal blocks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 1 hour ago, Rob99 said: Yes, all the earth connections are made with the earth bars fitted to the back plate of the enclosure at the top/bottom. The main issue I see is that you need a way to distribute the RCBO feed to the relays but without the triple height blocks you can't do this at the terminal block end. It's not an ideal solution but one option would be to take the RCBO feed and loop it across to one side of all of the relays which link to that RCBO so that when you wire the other side of the relay back to the terminal block you are effectively feeding switched live into each terminal block. Your neutral would then be commoned across the terminal blocks. ok. that makes sense. only issue i can think of is that i'd have to fit 2 x bootlace ferrules into the Loxone relay ports as it loops through the extension. on the plus side it would dramatically reduce the number of cables i need to feed to the terminal blocks from the relays! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan F Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 1 hour ago, Rob99 said: It's not an ideal solution but one option would be to take the RCBO feed and loop it across to one side of all of the relays which link to that RCBO so that when you wire the other side of the relay back to the terminal block you are effectively feeding switched live into each terminal block. Your neutral would then be commoned across the terminal blocks. This is what 90% of people do from what I've seen. You can use your terminal blocks, just need to re-wire a bit. As long as you you have the 2-way bootlace ferrules and the cable from RCBO is sized for the total load of all relays it serves, then you won't have an issue. (the cable sizing for other approaches only has to account for load of individual relays, so this is important) I used a slightly different approach, where I use dedicated (power distribution) terminal blocks on bottom rail next to RCBO's to distribute live to each relay independently. This involves more materials and more wiring, but I thought it was more "correct" at the time. 8 minutes ago, Thorfun said: on the plus side it would dramatically reduce the number of cables i need to feed to the terminal blocks from the relays! yes! and you should only have 1 blue cable per RCBO. For switched lives from relays I used brown for lighting and brown/black for blinds (where there are two lives). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan F Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 4 minutes ago, Dan F said: This is what 90% of people do from what I've seen. You can use your terminal blocks, just need to re-wire a bit. As long as you you have the 2-way bootlace ferrules and the cable from RCBO is sized for the total load of all relays it serves, then you won't have an issue. (the cable sizing for other approaches only has to account for load of individual relays, so this is important) This shows this approach: https://youtu.be/fRq_IjiyB68?si=ZIm1Ah5WGJCOLwky&t=612 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 4 minutes ago, Dan F said: 2-way bootlace ferrules i forgot such a thing existed! 🤦♂️ 6 minutes ago, Dan F said: I used a slightly different approach, where I use dedicated (power distribution) terminal blocks on bottom rail next to RCBO's to distribute live to each relay independently. This involves more materials and more wiring, but I thought it was more "correct" at the time. don't suppose you have a photo of this do you? although, i probably haven't got space for that as i have nearly 50 relays. 7 minutes ago, Dan F said: yes! and you should only have 1 blue cable per RCBO. For switched lives from relays I used brown for lighting and brown/black for blinds (where there are two lives). lovely. thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan F Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 9 minutes ago, Thorfun said: don't suppose you have a photo of this do you? although, i probably haven't got space for that as i have nearly 50 relays. Need to dig that up, I may have already posted it on buildhub somewhere actually. There are the type of blocks though. This image shows 6 different blocks put together, but you build them up and bridge them as required. The 1-entry block supports thicker cable for feed from RCBO (but you don't have to use it) whereas the 6-way blocks are for thinner cable. For feeding relays you wouldn't have neutral distirbution. I think it's more "correct" to not daisy-chain relays, but having 20-lives come out of one of these gets a bit busy! https://catalog.weidmueller.com/procat/Group.jsp;jsessionid=E9EF0DE779FEDC73307DAC5460900F18?page=Group&groupId=("group9800831255882") 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 thanks @Dan F. i've watched that video and it makes perfect sense. i will pick up some double ferrules and crack on with it! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan F Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 45 minutes ago, Thorfun said: thanks @Dan F. i've watched that video and it makes perfect sense. i will pick up some double ferrules and crack on with it! Have you totted up max current per RCBO? What thickness tri-rated are you using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 6 minutes ago, Dan F said: Have you totted up max current per RCBO? What thickness tri-rated are you using? I have a magic spreadsheet that calculates all that for me. 😉 each RCBO for mains lighting is max 2A. the RCBO for UFH and towel radiators in the bathrooms has max 5A the RCBO for the external blinds has max 7A I'm using 1.5mm tri-rated. I'm sure that's fine for those max currents but will double check with the electrician. things get more complicated when I need to work out the total current for the 24V circuits as they're all coming from the PSUB. those 24V circuits are currently showing as 42A max if all were on full power. the total of the PSUB is 40A so I should be within that as there's no way all those 24V lights will be on all the time and I will be restricting the power on a number of the circuits anyway. looking at the PSUB data sheet I see this: so that to me sounds like a peak current of 7A but I need to work on 15A inrush current. so, a 16A RCBO for that one and, most likely, a 2.5mm cable but, again, will check with the electrician as (I'm sure you're aware!) my electrical knowledge is...............errr..............limited. 😉 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 18 minutes ago, Thorfun said: so that to me sounds like a peak current of 7A but I need to work on 15A inrush current. so, a 16A RCBO for that one and, most likely, a 2.5mm cable but, again, will check with the electrician as (I'm sure you're aware!) my electrical knowledge is...............errr..............limited. 😉 spoke to my electrician and he said you size the RCBO for the nominal/peak current and use a c-type RCBO to handle the inrush current. so just a 10A c-type RCBO for the PSUB. also, 1.5mm cable is rate to 18A (off the top of his head so don't quote him on it!) so should be good for all my internal cabinet requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob99 Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 1.5mm2 tri-rated is rated at nominal 21A but you should derate that if you are bunching cables together. Sounds like your sparky knows his stuff though. Besides you have to keep below 16A if you're using the Loxone relays, or 10A on the miniserver relays. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 26 minutes ago, Rob99 said: Besides you have to keep below 16A if you're using the Loxone relays, or 10A on the miniserver relays. good point! I am well below that though. the highest current is the blinds and they're being switched from SSRs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob99 Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 5 minutes ago, Thorfun said: the highest current is the blinds and they're being switched from SSRs. Which SSR's did you go for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 16 minutes ago, Rob99 said: Which SSR's did you go for? a bit worried if I tell you I'll find out I bought the wrong ones! 🤣 https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004133687443.html the ST8-5DA-N version 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan F Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 1 hour ago, Rob99 said: Besides you have to keep below 16A if you're using the Loxone relays, or 10A on the miniserver relays. Right. I was more thinking about the sum (given daisy-chaining approach) which may add up.. depending on how many relays on one RCBO and what relays feed. But looks like @Thorfun has things under control, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 1 hour ago, Dan F said: But looks like @Thorfun has things under control That’s a first!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted March 8 Author Share Posted March 8 redone the first relay. is that better @Dan F? thought I'd better post a photo before I do them all in case I've f****d up again. Relay 1 doesn't have the perm live yet as I need to run it from the RCBO. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob99 Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 51 minutes ago, Thorfun said: thought I'd better post a photo before I do them all in case I've f****d up again. Looks fine to me 👍 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted March 10 Author Share Posted March 10 I got a load of these 3-way Wago connectors with my Loxone order. I think they came with the presence sensors. did/ does anyone use them or should I just stick with gel crimps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan F Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 1 hour ago, Thorfun said: I got a load of these 3-way Wago connectors with my Loxone order. I think they came with the presence sensors. I used them. Given space isn't quite so tight above presence sensors no real need to use the gel crimps, you can if you prefer though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted March 10 Author Share Posted March 10 20 minutes ago, Dan F said: I used them. Given space isn't quite so tight above presence sensors no real need to use the gel crimps, you can if you prefer though. haven't got enough to do all the pairs so would have to use gel crimps for some of them. I have 64 wagos and 16 sensors. so enough for the orange/orange white and green/green white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted March 11 Author Share Posted March 11 evening all. can't remember if I've asked this before but anyone know what size bootlace ferrules I need to get for Cat6A cable please? according to an awg conversion chart I found on Google 23awg is 0.57mm. so do I go for 0.5mm, 0.75mm or 1.0mm ferrules? actually, do I even need ferrules as it's solid core, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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