YALANCT (Yet Another Loxone And Network Cabling Thread)

[Thorfun]

hello all. my thoughts are turning to first fix electrics and I need to decide what cable I'm going to pull through for my Loxone system and networking.

 

Network

 

I've pretty much decided that my network cables will be Cat6 as I don't have any switches capable of 10Gbps and if I eventually do then Cat6 will do 10Gbps under 55m and my longest run in the house will be about 30m so I really don't see the point of installing Cat6a. 

 

BUT....and there's always a but somewhere...I remember someone saying that they distributed video via a HDBase-T matrix (I think it was @joth?) and that he recommended Cat6a for that. I AM planning on distributing video via a HDBaseT matrix but I was wondering if maybe some cable like this https://www.fscables.com/products/cat-6-hdbaset.html that are Cat6 and tested/recommended by the HDBaseT alliance would do the job instead of Cat6a? anyone got any comments on this?

 

Loxone

 

every room will have a Tree occupancy sensor and a Touch tree switch but some rooms will also include a standard retractive switch to control lights from another location, e.g his and her side of the beds for the bedroom lights, entrance from utility room to kitchen etc. I was originally going to run a single cable to each device but now I'm thinking that's just crazy and I am thinking of running a single tree cable to the presence sensors throughout the house to make use of that and also tree cable to each Touch switch and then daisy chaining to any other retractive switches in the room. I guess I could also run a single tree cable to each room and daisy chain to each touch/sensor/retractive switch in that room? kind of a halfway house for radial wiring? 

 

so, is that a crazy idea and should I simply run a cable to every device or is that the crazy idea!?

 

And if I do the one cable to each room and daisy chain from there should I use tree or cat6 or cat6a? I was originally thinking of running a Cat6 AND a 1.5mm T&E to each Touch switch but then realised that Tree cable (https://www.fscables.com/products/tree-cable-jumper-wire-designed-for-loxone-system.html?name=loxone&type=simple) has the 1.5mm cable as part of the single cable albeit at the cost of 2 pairs of twisted wires. I don't see a problem with losing 2 twisted pairs especially as pretty much everyone on here that has a Loxone system ( @jack, @joth, @Dan F, @Hilldes) have all said that most of the twisted pairs from their Cat6/Cat6A cable aren't used. But, if I'm not using Loxone LED lights I presume I don't need the 1.5mm cables as the Touch switches and presence sensors only use the 2 x twisted pairs, right?

 

arrggghh!! it does my head in trying to figure out what I might eventually need.

 

I sourced my equipment from @Rob99 as it was before Loxone started selling direct again and I'm hoping that someone on here will be able to help out.

[andy]

Can't comment on the vid distribution due to only having a single TV (I know, radical) but maybe my Loxone experience can help here...

 

Firstly, I'd not go for the Loxone occupancy sensor but go for the Faradite instead unless you want the acoustic angle?  Personally I think they are much nicer - they are small, no relay clicks, just put them everywhere

 

On to cabling - I went tree for the Loxone switches, spots and LED strip stuff (spots run from tree based on load, a single tree to each room and branching as you mention would be more than enough and my recommendation) and then ran a separate CAT6 for the Faradite with a couple of cables serving 2 sensors with diff cores (watch digital and analogue input counts on the Loxone end as that escalates!).  I also have all 240v radial obviously routing back to Loxone over 1.5/2.5mm T&E.

 

I was originally going to run T&E to each light switch but didn't bother and I think that was the right decision, switches will move away from needing T&E over time IMO and it's a waste of money/resources.  You can happily run the Touch switches using normal CAT6 (as I am for a couple).

 

I separately ran CAT6a for all my PoE gear e.g. Unifi cameras and AP.  Not strictly required but has worked a charm with some very long runs.

 

Now, what would I have done diff...?  Run more spare cables (CAT6 and T&E) between key areas (for me this would be comms room, utility room, loft and garage) and put in spare twin wall ducts (100mm ones, it's easier to slot insulation down them into slab and for me again this is loft to comms, comms to utility and utility to garage).

 

I ran specifically colour-coded cables which helped too - green for tree and green CAT6 for Faradite, blue for CAT6a PoE, orange for data, etc...

[Dan F]

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

I've pretty much decided that my network cables will be Cat6 as I don't have any switches capable of 10Gbps and if I eventually do then Cat6 will do 10Gbps under 55m and my longest run in the house will be about 30m so I really don't see the point of installing Cat6a. 

Your reasoning is sound, but if the price difference is minimal I'd go for HDBaseT tested/approved Cat6a.  I don't quite understand the "HDBaseT enchanced" thing though, as you can get cat5e cables that say they are "HDBaseT enchanced" e.g. https://scpcat5e.com/bulk-cables/category-data/hdbaset/hncpro-bl-cat5e-category-bulk-data-cable.  Maybe it comes down to the different versions of HDBaseT?  Some info here it seems https://products.hdbaset.org/avcat/ctl19001/index.cfm

 

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

I AM planning on distributing video via a HDBaseT matrix

Be interesting to understand what you plan to do, and why video distrution rather than Apple TV's.

 

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

every room will have a Tree occupancy sensor and a Touch tree switch but some rooms will also include a standard retractive switch to control lights from another location, e.g his and her side of the beds for the bedroom lights, entrance from utility room to kitchen etc. I was originally going to run a single cable to each device but now I'm thinking that's just crazy and I am thinking of running a single tree cable to the presence sensors throughout the house to make use of that and also tree cable to each Touch switch and then daisy chaining to any other retractive switches in the room. I guess I could also run a single tree cable to each room and daisy chain to each touch/sensor/retractive switch in that room? kind of a halfway house for radial wiring? 

Cable to each device is over the top and not necesary, but at the same time daisy chaining all tree devices from room to room I don't think is ideal either.  I did exactly the half-way house that you suggested, one cat7 to each room (in general) and then daisy-chain within the room.  This way you have 4 spare cores available per room for DI's for door, window sensors or retractive switches.  If you need more than 4 DI's in a room you can run two CAT7's to that room.  I don't have retractive switches (went for touch pures next to the bed to be able to control blinds & curtains easily) but I do use the additional cores for DI's for door and window contact sensors.  (I ordered the windows with these factory installed)

 

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

And if I do the one cable to each room and daisy chain from there should I use tree or cat6 or cat6a?

I followed Loxone recommendation to use CAT7, CAT6 would have probably worked too, but there wasn't much difference in the price. Aside from CAT7 to each room I have a CAT7 loop around the house picking up a number of temperature sensors (in slab any for bathroom UFH) and here the additional shielding the CAT7 I used had was very useful for ensuring relaible signal from a lot of sensors.  For loxone tree AWG23 is ideal given you are running 24v everywhere, but not a must and less important if you have a run to each room.  You can't run any loxone lighting off of CAT6 or CAT7 though, you'd need tree cable for that, or seperate cable for 24v supply.

 

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

1.5mm T&E to each Touch switch

Why do you need T&E for touch switches?

 

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

 I don't see a problem with losing 2 twisted pairs especially as pretty much everyone on here that has a Loxone system ( @jack, @joth, @Dan F, @Hilldes) have all said that most of the twisted pairs from their Cat6/Cat6A cable aren't used. But, if I'm not using Loxone LED lights I presume I don't need the 1.5mm cables as the Touch switches and presence sensors only use the 2 x twisted pairs, right?

You will use additional twisted pairs for DI's, I never said they aren't used 🙂  And you don't need more than CAT cable if you aren't doing Loxone lighting anyway.

 

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

 

I sourced my equipment from @Rob99 as it was before Loxone started selling direct again and I'm hoping that someone on here will be able to help out.

What other help do you need? BTW what approach are you using to lighting in the end?

Edited November 4, 2022 by Dan F

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, andy said:

Firstly, I'd not go for the Loxone occupancy sensor but go for the Faradite instead unless you want the acoustic angle?  Personally I think they are much nicer - they are small, no relay clicks, just put them everywhere

too late! already bought them. 😉 

 

1 hour ago, andy said:

I was originally going to run T&E to each light switch but didn't bother and I think that was the right decision, switches will move away from needing T&E over time IMO and it's a waste of money/resources.  You can happily run the Touch switches using normal CAT6 (as I am for a couple).

thanks and this also supports what @joth did by not bothering with the T&E. 

 

quote:

 

 

he also mentions voltage drop but the trouble is I have no idea at the moment if I will need 24V power delivery and so don't know if I need to take the Cat6A route or not. part of me is thinking just 'belt and braces' it but the other part is thinking about costs and ease of installation/termination.

1 hour ago, andy said:

I separately ran CAT6a for all my PoE gear e.g. Unifi cameras and AP.  Not strictly required but has worked a charm with some very long runs.

again, I don't really have very long runs and even 4K CCTV video H.264 compressed is only 10Mbps so we're really not even getting close to 1Gbps let alone the need for 10Gbps. and all my runs will be well below the 55m limit for 10Gbps over Cat6 anyway.

 

1 hour ago, andy said:

Now, what would I have done diff...?  Run more spare cables (CAT6 and T&E) between key areas (for me this would be comms room, utility room, loft and garage) and put in spare twin wall ducts (100mm ones, it's easier to slot insulation down them into slab and for me again this is loft to comms, comms to utility and utility to garage).

this is good advice and I am still adding runs to my electrical layout and I will probably still be doing so until everything is boarded over. and even then I will have access from my comms room to the loft so can still distribute around the house if necessary.

 

1 hour ago, andy said:

I ran specifically colour-coded cables which helped too - green for tree and green CAT6 for Faradite, blue for CAT6a PoE, orange for data, etc...

yeah. was planning on colour coding it. makes things easy to recognise although I wasn't going to differentiate between data and PoE as with my compulsions I'd never be able to run a PoE device on a data cable. 😂

 

thank you for taking the time to post a response.

[joth]

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

I was originally thinking of running a Cat6 AND a 1.5mm T&E to each Touch switch but then realised that Tree cable (https://www.fscables.com/products/tree-cable-jumper-wire-designed-for-loxone-system.html?name=loxone&type=simple) has the 1.5mm

 

What did you want 1.5mm2 T&E for? Dedicated cable you could put mains on if you ever wanted, but obviously can't do that with the pair inside Tree cable.

Personally I just did cat6a everywhere. One drop per room then daisy chain devices in the room. 24V on orange pair, Tree on green pair, and then up to 4 digital input devices per room on the blue and brown pairs. I used cheap (£9) PIRs from AliExpress (laboriously desoldered the relays to remove the clicking hahaha) and retractive switches in some places.

I'd do this again, unless I decided to go absolutely all in with Knx in which case I think I'd use TP1 

 

Regarding HDbaseT, as mentioned elsewhere I found cable bandwidth is not the issue, but the matrix breaking HDCP copy protection means I don't get 4K distribution anyway. Changing the cable doesn't fix that. 

 

 

 

[Thorfun]

1 minute ago, Dan F said:

Your reasoning is sound, but if the price difference is minimal I'd go for HDBaseT tested/approved Cat6a.  I don't quite understand the "HDBaseT enchanced" thing though, as you can get cat5e cables that say they are "HDBaseT enchanced" e.g. https://scpcat5e.com/bulk-cables/category-data/hdbaset/hncpro-bl-cat5e-category-bulk-data-cable.  Maybe it comes down to the different versions of HDBaseT?  Some info here it seems https://products.hdbaset.org/avcat/ctl19001/index.cfm

still comes down to Cat6 or Cat6A at the end of the day though, doesn't it? 😉 

 

2 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Be interesting to understand what you plan to do, and why video distrution rather than Apple TV's.

because I can? is that a valid answer? I have an Apple TV but I haven't done matrix video distribution yet and I'm a geek who likes to mess around with technology.

 

3 minutes ago, Dan F said:

You will use additional twisted pairs for DI's, I never said they aren't used 🙂  And you don't need more than CAT cable if you aren't doing Loxone lighting anyway.

fair enough! not planning on using the overpriced Loxone downlights tbh. but will double check the spec and cost of them again.

 

4 minutes ago, Dan F said:

What other help do you need?

someone to make all the decision for me and to come and install it all for nothing? 

[Thorfun]

3 minutes ago, joth said:

What did you want 1.5mm2 T&E for? Dedicated cable you could put mains on if you ever wanted, but obviously can't do that with the pair inside Tree cable.

yeah, was just thinking about any future selling/reverting back to 'normal' so with dedicated T&E someone could do that. but now I'm heading down your route of thinking and going all-in on Loxone and automation and sticking two fingers at whoever comes after.

 

4 minutes ago, joth said:

Personally I just did cat6a everywhere. One drop per room then daisy chain devices in the room. 24V on orange pair, Tree on green pair, and then up to 4 digital input devices per room on the blue and brown pairs. I used cheap (£9) PIRs from AliExpress (laboriously desoldered the relays to remove the clicking hahaha) and retractive switches in some places.

I'd do this again, unless I decided to go absolutely all in with Knx in which case I think I'd use TP1 

yeah, I remember reading you did this. but I also remember reading you saying Cat6A was probably overkill! which makes me wonder if it's worth it.

 

5 minutes ago, joth said:

Regarding HDbaseT, as mentioned elsewhere I found cable bandwidth is not the issue, but the matrix breaking HDCP copy protection means I don't get 4K distribution anyway. Changing the cable doesn't fix that. 

good to know. so, again, Cat6 should be sufficient if cable runs aren't long.

[Dan F]

1 minute ago, Thorfun said:

someone to make all the decision for me and to come and install it all for nothing? 

 

Sketching it out helps a lot.  Create a draw.io diagram, import your floor plan and make it semi-transparent, and then start planning out your runs.  I found this helped me.  I also used a consistent approach between rooms:

- Cabinet to touch pure next to the door, then daisy chain from there.

- Blue & blue/white for window DI's, Brown and brown/white for door DI's
- etc.

 

 

[joth]

7 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

he also mentions voltage drop but the trouble is I have no idea at the moment if I will need 24V power delivery and so don't know if I need to take the Cat6A route or not. part of me is thinking just 'belt and braces' it but the other part is thinking about costs and ease of installation/termination

 

Termination is just as easy for Loxone devices etc, in fact I find the larger awg easier to deal with most the time.

The patch panel IDC punch down was all done by my wife but seemed easy enough.

Getting cat6a wall keystones is a bit of a faff, and the occasional rj45 crimped on a flylead are a fiddle until you work out the correct parts and tool, bit once that's lined up it's no harder than any other rj45. Just don't let a subcontractor try with the tools off the van.

hot tip: don't teach yourself to do this 4 meters up a wall on a cold November day trying to get the CCTV in just before they strike the scaffolding.

 

 

 

[joth]

5 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

yeah, I remember reading you did this. but I also remember reading you saying Cat6A was probably overkill! which makes me wonder if it's worth it.

Think of it as Insurance. It's entirely overkill aside from that one in 10,000 time that you actually need it. 

 

[Thorfun]

6 minutes ago, Dan F said:

 

Sketching it out helps a lot.  Create a draw.io diagram, import your floor plan and make it semi-transparent, and then start planning out your runs.  I found this helped me.  I also used a consistent approach between rooms:

- Cabinet to touch pure next to the door, then daisy chain from there.

- Blue & blue/white for window DI's, Brown and brown/white for door DI's
- etc.

 

 

this is a great idea. I did use uplan but their automated cable runs were shocking. I also have a laminated A1 printout of our electrical drawings so I could annotate on that with a whiteboard marker.

[Dan F]

2 minutes ago, joth said:

Think of it as Insurance. It's entirely overkill aside from that one in 10,000 time that you actually need it. 

 

Fibre is overkill too, but for some reason I ran it to some locations anyway! 🙂   Next time, conduit might be a better approach to future-proofing though..

[Thorfun]

4 minutes ago, joth said:

Think of it as Insurance. It's entirely overkill aside from that one in 10,000 time that you actually need it. 

 

and it's this that's making the decision so hard! I want the house to be as maintenance free as possible (with regards to future work on it) and so I don't want to be ripping out cables in 10 years. but who's to say that even if I do put in Cat6A that I still won't have to do that anyway?

 

I remember you also saying that Cat6A was a bit harder to run? was it hard enough that if you had the choice again you would do Cat6?

[Thorfun]

1 minute ago, Dan F said:

Fibre is overkill too, but for some reason I ran it to some locations anyway! 🙂   Next time, conduit might be a better approach to future-proofing though..

I was actually thinking of running fibre to the TV points just in case. for the cost of a reel of fibre I thought it was a bit of a no-brainer.

[Dan F]

Just now, Thorfun said:

I was actually thinking of running fibre to the TV points just in case. for the cost of a reel of fibre I thought it was a bit of a no-brainer.

Thats exactly what i did.  2 TV locations, office and loft I think.  Apparently fibre is good for audio equipment, reduces electrical noises and improves sound (or so the guy I got the bluesound powernodes from reckoned).  None of what I put in is terminated though, and may never be.  You have to get the right type of fibre with enough fibres for it to be useful though. 

[joth]

1 minute ago, Thorfun said:

I remember you also saying that Cat6A was a bit harder to run? was it hard enough that if you had the choice again you would do Cat6?

 

No I'd still use 6a. sure you can't get as much in a duct and it had a larger turn radius, but it's a lot more robust for contractors to pull through the building. And the screening on pairs supports 1wire and tree in the same jacket with minimal cross talk as Dan says. 

We did also have a lot of skinny 8 core security wire which is a nice fallback for digital sensors in really hard to reach places like door sensors in door jams. 

[Dan F]

5 minutes ago, joth said:

the screening on pairs

There are about three different types of CAT6A though, not all have screening. U/FTP, F/FTP, F/UTP etc.  Also some are solid core and some are stranded.   Always go for solid-core, but I never understand the pro-cons of the shielding options.   Somewhere I read that shielding on network cable can be a bad thing (unless you use the proper shielded plugs/keystones which involves more work) as otherwise the sheilding acts as an antena and it's worse than no shielding at all.

 

Our electricians used a mix of:

https://scpcat5e.com/bulk-cables/category-data/hdbaset/hncproplus-6a-lszh-cat6a-category-bulk-data-cable-low-smoke-zeero-halogen.  <- quite stiff, nightmare to terminate and I'm not sure they have correctly terminated the shielding.

https://scpcat5e.com/bulk-cables/category-data/cat6a/cat6a-category-bulk-data-cable-augmented <- easy to terminate, no sheilding, does the job.

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Dan F

[Thorfun]

4 minutes ago, joth said:

 

No I'd still use 6a. sure you can't get as much in a duct and it had a larger turn radius, but it's a lot more robust for contractors to pull through the building. And the screening on pairs supports 1wire and tree in the same jacket with minimal cross talk as Dan says. 

you argue the case well and it's hard to not just do it <input Nike tick emoji here>.

 

6 minutes ago, joth said:

We did also have a lot of skinny 8 core security wire which is a nice fallback for digital sensors in really hard to reach places like door sensors in door jams.

I've not got enough brain power to be able to consider running cables for this.

[Rob99]

Hi @Thorfun  thanks for the mention ☺️

 

My thoughts………..

 

The general principle I use when designing wiring layouts is to run a tree loop around each floor connecting the presence sensors as they will all usually be within ceiling voids so easy to cable to. I then take branches off and drop down to switches which usually means only one cable at each switch. There are various options and it may come down to how easy it is to run cable in a particular space.

 

The cat6/6A/7 debate is always interesting but I would tend to go with cat6A as the most recent IEEE ratified standard (AFAIK cat7 isn’t an IEEE standard). Colour coding is a sensible approach as you’ll end up with dozens, if not hundreds, of cables!

 

Do not use the Loxone suggested tree cable. It is designed purely to provide partner installers with the quickest installation method but in my view is the worst option for cabling an installation as it completely cuts out any future options without re-wiring. The two 1.5mm cables are only suitable for extra low voltage fittings (e.g.24v) and do not meet requirements for fixed wiring under BS7671 (AKA 18^th Edition wiring regs).

 

I would always run min 1.5mm2 t&e to every light circuit as this will give you the option for any type of light fitting (24v/230v etc) as you can decide what you throw down the cable and even change it later without much hassle. Using t&e meets wiring regs for mains wiring so will never be an issue later.

 

Don’t run t&e to switch positions as it’s unnecessary if you already have a cat cable/tree connection. If some future buyer gets stroppy about not having “normal” light switches, you can easily swap out the touch switches for standard looking Quinetic ones and fit the switching receivers in each circuit. You could probably sell the touch switches for more than the cost of the Quinetic gear 🤣😂

 

As I supplied all your kit, I'm always happy to offer any other advice, just ask.

 

[Thorfun]

9 hours ago, Rob99 said:

Hi @Thorfun  thanks for the mention ☺️

 

My thoughts………..

 

The general principle I use when designing wiring layouts is to run a tree loop around each floor connecting the presence sensors as they will all usually be within ceiling voids so easy to cable to. I then take branches off and drop down to switches which usually means only one cable at each switch. There are various options and it may come down to how easy it is to run cable in a particular space.

 

The cat6/6A/7 debate is always interesting but I would tend to go with cat6A as the most recent IEEE ratified standard (AFAIK cat7 isn’t an IEEE standard). Colour coding is a sensible approach as you’ll end up with dozens, if not hundreds, of cables!

 

Do not use the Loxone suggested tree cable. It is designed purely to provide partner installers with the quickest installation method but in my view is the worst option for cabling an installation as it completely cuts out any future options without re-wiring. The two 1.5mm cables are only suitable for extra low voltage fittings (e.g.24v) and do not meet requirements for fixed wiring under BS7671 (AKA 18^th Edition wiring regs).

 

I would always run min 1.5mm2 t&e to every light circuit as this will give you the option for any type of light fitting (24v/230v etc) as you can decide what you throw down the cable and even change it later without much hassle. Using t&e meets wiring regs for mains wiring so will never be an issue later.

 

Don’t run t&e to switch positions as it’s unnecessary if you already have a cat cable/tree connection. If some future buyer gets stroppy about not having “normal” light switches, you can easily swap out the touch switches for standard looking Quinetic ones and fit the switching receivers in each circuit. You could probably sell the touch switches for more than the cost of the Quinetic gear 🤣😂

 

As I supplied all your kit, I'm always happy to offer any other advice, just ask.

 

thanks Rob, all great info. plans are definitely now becoming more concrete. I've got some walls to build and plumbing to do today but I'll think about it all while working and post some kind of finalised plan later.

[Hilldes]

@Thorfun I used CAT6 to all light switches and presence sensors. Given the switches are mostly retractive are just switching 24v and even the touch pures work fine with CAT6.

 

The other benefit of running a dedicated CAT6 to each end point is that if you get a cable fault it only affects that one device. During the 2nd fix electrics we found we had plasterboard screws through T&E (handling 230v) in two separate locations which caused faults and had to have cable sections replaced.

 

I did run 1mm2 T&E to all light switches. Totally redundant. But its cheap and easy to run and I like the idea of being able to say to potential purchasers they have the option of conventional wiring if they wish to revert. Interesting point though made by Rob99 on use of Quinetic as an alternative to home automation central control.

 

All lighting used 1mm T&E with the exception of six Loxone RGBW spots above this kitchen island - these use Loxone Tree cable.

 

The only other location I used (Loxone) tree cable was from ground floor plant room (Loxone cabinet location) to the first floor plant room to give the future option of using Loxone UFH actuators. The UFH actuator uses T&E at present. 

 

@Rob99 if you put in tree wiring but don't use Loxone tree cable what cable do you use?

 

More on the light switches... We have just two Loxone Touch Pures at present - using the temperature sensor for heating control as one zone downstairs, one zone upstairs. Not sure why but the retractive switches are fine in some locations, but can resonate in the studwork in other locations (i.e. quite noisy to click), especially where you click multiple times to cycle through lighting moods and double click to go direct to 'off'. Will probably start replacing some of the retractive switches with Faradite tap-1s (£50 each so less than half the price of Touch pures). We have a Faradite Tap-5 switch and that just switches 24v DC and CAT6 is fine. You will use more CAT6 cores on Faradite Tap switches e.g. Tap-1s with just one central switch zone, you can supply 24v to the backlight (a nice feature and I find better than the back light on Touch Pure gen 2). Noting the Tap switches don't have temp sensors, but are lower profile than Touch pures.

[Thorfun]

14 minutes ago, Hilldes said:

@Thorfun I used CAT6 to all light switches and presence sensors. Given the switches are mostly retractive are just switching 24v and even the touch pures work fine with CAT6.

 

The other benefit of running a dedicated CAT6 to each end point is that if you get a cable fault it only affects that one device. During the 2nd fix electrics we found we had plasterboard screws through T&E (handling 230v) in two separate locations which caused faults and had to have cable sections replaced.

 

I did run 1mm2 T&E to all light switches. Totally redundant. But its cheap and easy to run and I like the idea of being able to say to potential purchasers they have the option of conventional wiring if they wish to revert. Interesting point though made by Rob99 on use of Quinetic as an alternative to home automation central control.

 

All lighting used 1mm T&E with the exception of six Loxone RGBW spots above this kitchen island - these use Loxone Tree cable.

 

The only other location I used (Loxone) tree cable was from ground floor plant room (Loxone cabinet location) to the first floor plant room to give the future option of using Loxone UFH actuators. The UFH actuator uses T&E at present. 

 

@Rob99 if you put in tree wiring but don't use Loxone tree cable what cable do you use?

 

More on the light switches... We have just two Loxone Touch Pures at present - using the temperature sensor for heating control as one zone downstairs, one zone upstairs. Not sure why but the retractive switches are fine in some locations, but can resonate in the studwork in other locations (i.e. quite noisy to click), especially where you click multiple times to cycle through lighting moods and double click to go direct to 'off'. Will probably start replacing some of the retractive switches with Faradite tap-1s (£50 each so less than half the price of Touch pures). We have a Faradite Tap-5 switch and that just switches 24v DC and CAT6 is fine. You will use more CAT6 cores on Faradite Tap switches e.g. Tap-1s with just one central switch zone, you can supply 24v to the backlight (a nice feature and I find better than the back light on Touch Pure gen 2). Noting the Tap switches don't have temp sensors, but are lower profile than Touch pures.

thanks for this. really useful information and gives a great positive result by using just Cat6.

 

much for me to consider and digest.

[jack]

I can't add much, other than to say we used solid core, Cat 6a wiring throughout. Paid a bit more for LSZH cable.

 

I don't know whether copper-plated aluminium is a thing in Cat 6a cables, but worth checking you're getting solid copper.

 

One slight downside to Cat 6a compared to Cat 5e is that you have to use Cat 6a sockets, which from memory were a fair bit more expensive than Cat 5e sockets. Same with patch panels, although in the scheme of things these aren't expensive items.

 

Like everyone else, I wish I'd run more cable to and between certain areas, but I suspect an even a better approach would have been more ducting.

 

The main thing I think I got wrong with Loxone wiring is the termination of cables as they come into the Loxone enclosure. What I should have done is terminated every cable on a massive patch panel (possibly outside the enclosure) and then run double insulated twisted pairs from that to the various inlets and outlets. Instead, the wiring is a rat's nest of Cat 6a cable squeezed into the cable guides. 

 

It's something I plan to improve when I have the time and funds available.

[Rob99]

2 hours ago, Hilldes said:

@Rob99 if you put in tree wiring but don't use Loxone tree cable what cable do you use?

When I originally started with Loxone about 5 years ago I used their own version of Cat7 for all my wiring at home. Now I tend to recommend cat6A as it's more than up to the job.

Interestingly, Loxone used to push their cat7 cable advising it was always better because it was fully shielded etc, but when they started marketing their "Tree" cable funnily enough there's not a sign of any shielding!!

[Rob99]

53 minutes ago, jack said:

The main thing I think I got wrong with Loxone wiring is the termination of cables as they come into the Loxone enclosure. What I should have done is terminated every cable on a massive patch panel (possibly outside the enclosure) and then run double insulated twisted pairs from that to the various inlets and outlets. Instead, the wiring is a rat's nest of Cat 6a cable squeezed into the cable guides. 

@jack to keep all your cat6 type cables nicely terminated you could fit a 110 block outside the panel to terminate all the cables and then just bring in the pairs/cores you need.  This one  does 300 pairs (so 75 cables) for about £40. Yes, it's designed for cat5e but there's only a 0.06mm2 difference between 24awg cat5e and 23awg cat6/6a. Much cheaper to do it this way than using patch panels or the Weidmuller 8x8 DIN rail blocks.