Critique my heating setup

[jayc89]

SOS. I'm tearing my hair out with our current energy usage. Prices going up is one thing, but over the last couple of weeks we've been averaging ~70kWh a day, which seems crazy high. 

 

32kW Baxi Platinum+ condensing boiler set to 70c. Capable of modulating down to 10.4kW

250L DWH set to 50c

UFH manifold set to 35c

 

Two zones:

1) Downstairs: 7x UFH loops, approx 520m of 16mm pipe and 63L of water. Energy demand: approx. 6kW based on 100w/m2

2) Upstairs: 8x radiators all balanced. Energy demand: approx. 9.8kW

 

UFH is set to 21c during the day ay 19c over night

Rads set to 21c from 6pm - 9pm and 19c all other times

 

Scenario: Reducing the UFH mixing temp from 40c to 35c appears to have increased energy usage by 34%. Hypothesis: The boiler continues to heat at 70c. Reducing the UFH mixing temp effectively wastes more heated water as the UFH mixer cannot make use of it all, resulting in more being returned to the boiler and the loops taking longer to reach temp.

 

Scenario: When just the UFH is on, the boiler return remains low, at approx 40c. Significantly higher than 25c (UFH mixer temp - 10c delta). Hypothesis: The UFH mixer cannot make full use of the 70c flow temp, whilst some is being mixed and pushed through the UFH loops, too much is being returned straight to the boiler, increasing the return temp.

 

Scenario: When just the radiators are on, the return temp remains high (approx. 60-65c) and the boiler cycles every 15/20 minutes. Hypothesis: The aggregate capacity of the radiators is not able to extract enough heat from the water to sufficiently reduce the return temp. I.e. the boiler is too large and/or it's not modulating down far enough. All radiators are balanced in that they all heat up at roughly the same time.

 

I'm reaching the conclusion that the boiler is just massively over sized for our requirements. Even if everything was running at the same time (inc. 3kW for DWH) we'd only need 19kW in total. It's been fitted over a year now so getting the plumber back to rectify this will be near impossible. 

 

Whilst a buffer tank should reduce the time the boiler runs whilst the UFH is calling for heat, I suspect our only long term solution is to crack on with insulating the house and switch to an ASHP, but until I can do that, if anyone can offer any advice on how to make better use of our heating system, I'd greatly appreciate it. 

[markocosic]

The boiler SHOULD modulate down to meet your flow temperature setpoint. If it can't modulate down enough then it will shut off until the circulating water has cooled sufficiently that it can fire again. That is not necessarily a disaster. (old boiler never modulated at all, and relied on cycling to match their average output to what is needed) It will still operate with acceptable efficiency if the flow/return temps are in the condensing range.

 

 

Your radiator output is not high enough to be above the boiler's minimum output. That's probably because your rooms are at the temperatures (that are set by the TRVs), the TRVs are throttling the input into the radiators, and something somewhere is bypassing the flow back to the boiler return in order for it to be this high. If you have a towel rail on the circuit that would be a likely culprit. Else look for a sneaky bypass hidden somewhere.

 

Setup the boiler properly. Space heating should be weather-compensated (flow temperature out to radiators only increases if it needs to because the weather is cool). This should result in the TRVs throttling the input into the radiators less. Better for it to sit there condensing at 45/40 than not condensing at 70/65.

 

If you can't weather-compensate the boiler because it's been installed by some numpty as a non condensing boiler then you'll need to rework your controls such that the hot water cylinder and the space heating systems can operate independently/request different flow temperatures from the boiler.

 

 

It sounds like your underfloor circuit IS drawing enough water / heat from the boiler that the return remains tolerably low. (i.e. all 30 degrees is being sucked out by the floor) If it ALWAYS runs like this then your underfloor system must ALWAYS be calling for heat and NEVER reaching setpoint. The UFH mixing temperature should be set as high as the floor can tolerate/as high as the floor needs to deliver the peak space heating demand in winter. (whichever is less) You can then use the weather compensation on the boiler to reduce the flow temperature out to the floor to less than this if you don't need that much heat.

 

 

The above will trim your usage by perhaps 20% by allowing the boiler to condensate and reducing cycling time by having more of the water in the system active at any one time (rather than throttled by TRVs) Fundamentally your energy use is what it is due to the building fabric / ventilation / comfort setpoints rather than the heat source though. Is there adequate insulation under this UFH or are you now "slowly reheating the ground under the house" after a summer of inactivity and it slowly getting grained down over autumn? That could also be an issue. A floor that manages to keep on sucking heat out from a boiler is suspect.

[jayc89]

22 minutes ago, markocosic said:

The boiler SHOULD modulate down to meet your flow temperature setpoint. If it can't modulate down enough then it will shut off until the circulating water has cooled sufficiently that it can fire again. That is not necessarily a disaster. (old boiler never modulated at all, and relied on cycling to match their average output to what is needed) It will still operate with acceptable efficiency if the flow/return temps are in the condensing range.

 

 

Your radiator output is not high enough to be above the boiler's minimum output. That's probably because your rooms are at the temperatures (that are set by the TRVs), the TRVs are throttling the input into the radiators, and something somewhere is bypassing the flow back to the boiler return in order for it to be this high. If you have a towel rail on the circuit that would be a likely culprit. Else look for a sneaky bypass hidden somewhere.

 

Setup the boiler properly. Space heating should be weather-compensated (flow temperature out to radiators only increases if it needs to because the weather is cool). This should result in the TRVs throttling the input into the radiators less. Better for it to sit there condensing at 45/40 than not condensing at 70/65.

 

If you can't weather-compensate the boiler because it's been installed by some numpty as a non condensing boiler then you'll need to rework your controls such that the hot water cylinder and the space heating systems can operate independently/request different flow temperatures from the boiler.

 

 

It sounds like your underfloor circuit IS drawing enough water / heat from the boiler that the return remains tolerably low. (i.e. all 30 degrees is being sucked out by the floor) If it ALWAYS runs like this then your underfloor system must ALWAYS be calling for heat and NEVER reaching setpoint. The UFH mixing temperature should be set as high as the floor can tolerate/as high as the floor needs to deliver the peak space heating demand in winter. (whichever is less) You can then use the weather compensation on the boiler to reduce the flow temperature out to the floor to less than this if you don't need that much heat.

 

 

The above will trim your usage by perhaps 20% by allowing the boiler to condensate and reducing cycling time by having more of the water in the system active at any one time (rather than throttled by TRVs) Fundamentally your energy use is what it is due to the building fabric / ventilation / comfort setpoints rather than the heat source though. Is there adequate insulation under this UFH or are you now "slowly reheating the ground under the house" after a summer of inactivity and it slowly getting grained down over autumn? That could also be an issue. A floor that manages to keep on sucking heat out from a boiler is suspect.

 

Thanks for the info, it's really useful.

 

The first radiator the boiler flow will reach is a towel rail, this is in the bathroom directly above the boiler, followed by the landing radiator, neither have a TRV, the landing rad is the one nearest the upstairs stat. I'll test the flow/return temps coming from the towel rad this evening. What else would I be looking for when trying to find a bypass and how would I fix it?

 

Our boiler can be fitted with weather compensation, the main reason I hadn't yet was because the curve in the summer drops too low to heat the DWH. Is there a way around this?

 

I also assumed that being able to request different flow temps from a boiler would be a boiler specific feature, i.e. not something that could be applied generically. It would be ideal for the UFH zone/DWH if possible. 

 

I did have a similar idea about setting the mixing temp higher and allowing the weather comp to dictate the actual flow temp. My concern there was we'd end up with hotspots in the floor as the room temp would overshoot the stat.

 

The UFH pipes are sitting on 100mm PIR, with 25mm perimeter up stands. Based on our PA, this gives a calculated U-value of 0.15.

 

I guess you're right that the boiler shutting off isn't terrible, but it's certainly less efficient. My other thought when it comes to the UFH zone is that the boiler is actually having to work harder because the flow is 70, but the return is only 40. So naively I'm assuming it's working harder to heat 40 back up to 70 for the UFH, than it needs to for the upstairs rads, which are returning at a closer temp to the flow. So perhaps the majority of the excess usage us actually coming from the UFH zone and not the radiators?

Edited October 13, 2022 by jayc89

[Marvin]

Hi @jayc89

 

Adding to @markocosic very good analysis, I would say that energy in = energy out, and so if your using 70kWh a day then its going somewhere. I know this is obvious, but there is also the thought, where?

 

In my humble opinion:

2 hours ago, jayc89 said:

Scenario: Reducing the UFH mixing temp from 40c to 35c appears to have increased energy usage by 34%. Hypothesis: The boiler continues to heat at 70c. Reducing the UFH mixing temp effectively wastes more heated water as the UFH mixer cannot make use of it all, resulting in more being returned to the boiler and the loops taking longer to reach temp.

 This suggests that the pipes betewwn the boiler and the UFH are loosing the heat: Boiler runs longer trying to keep the heat up.

 

2 hours ago, jayc89 said:

Scenario: When just the UFH is on, the boiler return remains low, at approx 40c. Significantly higher than 25c (UFH mixer temp - 10c delta). Hypothesis: The UFH mixer cannot make full use of the 70c flow temp, whilst some is being mixed and pushed through the UFH loops, too much is being returned straight to the boiler, increasing the return temp.

This suggests that the floor is already quite warm around the pipes. What floor coverings do you have. It can also mean that the floor is taking a time for the heat to rise. What are the pipes in? Screed? Concrete? 

 

2 hours ago, jayc89 said:

Scenario: When just the radiators are on, the return temp remains high (approx. 60-65c) and the boiler cycles every 15/20 minutes. Hypothesis: The aggregate capacity of the radiators is not able to extract enough heat from the water to sufficiently reduce the return temp. I.e. the boiler is too large and/or it's not modulating down far enough. All radiators are balanced in that they all heat up at roughly the same time.

Or the radiators are too small to supply the heat that the rooms are loosing. i.e radiators full on room not hot enough water flowing through back to boiler before loosing the heat.

 

Airtightness and insulation are the main thoughts, but also over heating to areas of the building caused by exposed pipes or unregulated radiators.

 

To go much further really needs info from you regarding the building size and thermal elements and how the building is ventilated.

 

There are heat requirement calculators on this site that can help to understand what would be expected energy use. I don't know where they are as I have my own.

 

Best of luck Marvin.

 

[joth]

2 hours ago, Marvin said:

Adding to @markocosic very good analysis, I would say that energy in = energy out, and so if your using 70kWh a day then its going somewhere. I know this is obvious, but there is also the thought, where?

 

 

But this is gas which is a bit more tricky than using electrical energy where energy delivered through the meter "must" be being used to do some sort of work somewhere.

For example, but you could be just venting un-burnt gas straight out the building via a leak somewhere, without it ever becoming heat energy. Or more likely (per @markocosic  analysis), short cycling and poor condensing meaning a bunch of unused heat energy is going out the flue.

 

 

[markocosic]

3 hours ago, jayc89 said:

 

The first radiator the boiler flow will reach is a towel rail, this is in the bathroom directly above the boiler, followed by the landing radiator, neither have a TRV

 

There is your bypass. The upstairs rads have shut down their TRVs. All the flow is whipping straight through the towel rail and back to the boiler at 65C with no heat being rejected to the rooms upstairs.

 

(If the rads were chucking out heat the return water would be cooler)

 

The UFH on the other hand IS drawing heat from the boiler. Can't say where it's going if you've got adequate insulation. Probably no showstoppers just death by 101 issues.

 

 

Temperature control on boiler would be:

 

- Fit 3rd party Opentherm capable thermostat / time clock/ programmer that tells it to use X degC when on the CH zone and Y degC when on the HW zone

 

- Fit OEM weather comp controls - this mentions where the DHW call for heat must be wired so that the boiler runs at higher temp not weather comp temp when the HW zone is calling:

 

https://www.baxi.co.uk/trade/boilers-parts-and-accessories/-/media/websites/baxiuk/sagittarius/trade-section/files/boiler-controls/7225851-multifit-relay-outdoor-sensor-kit.pdf?la=en&hash=D7E47402B2188AE578FCEB1FF0BC0DCFC86AB6CF

 

That may need a replumb of your zoning though.

 

 

Alternatively redo the lot with a heat pump and chuck the boiler in the bin whilst at it!

 

[Radian]

5 hours ago, jayc89 said:

condensing boiler set to 70c

 

Try it at 65^oC?

 

2 minutes ago, markocosic said:

There is your bypass.

 

Especially if the rails are a nice shiny chrome 😉

[jayc89]

11 minutes ago, markocosic said:

 

There is your bypass. The upstairs rads have shut down their TRVs. All the flow is whipping straight through the towel rail and back to the boiler at 65C with no heat being rejected to the rooms upstairs.

 

(If the rads were chucking out heat the return water would be cooler)

 

The UFH on the other hand IS drawing heat from the boiler. Can't say where it's going if you've got adequate insulation. Probably no showstoppers just death by 101 issues.

 

 

Temperature control on boiler would be:

 

- Fit 3rd party Opentherm capable thermostat / time clock/ programmer that tells it to use X degC when on the CH zone and Y degC when on the HW zone

 

- Fit OEM weather comp controls - this mentions where the DHW call for heat must be wired so that the boiler runs at higher temp not weather comp temp when the HW zone is calling:

 

https://www.baxi.co.uk/trade/boilers-parts-and-accessories/-/media/websites/baxiuk/sagittarius/trade-section/files/boiler-controls/7225851-multifit-relay-outdoor-sensor-kit.pdf?la=en&hash=D7E47402B2188AE578FCEB1FF0BC0DCFC86AB6CF

 

That may need a replumb of your zoning though.

 

 

Alternatively redo the lot with a heat pump and chuck the boiler in the bin whilst at it!

 

 

What's the best course of action with the towel rad? Reduce flow through it more than the other rads in an effort to avoid the bypass?

Thanks for the Baxi Relay docs, I'd seen it before, but I missed this sentence;

 

When a DHW demand is applied to the boiler the Outdoor Sensor is overridden.

 

Which mitigates my concern of the flow temp being too low on the WC curve for DHW. 

[joth]

30 minutes ago, markocosic said:

- Fit 3rd party Opentherm capable thermostat / time clock/ programmer that tells it to use X degC when on the CH zone and Y degC when on the HW zone

 

 

anyone had good results fitting a  "learning" thermostat like Nest to reduce costs?

With opentherm + UFH it is supposed to be quite good (says the marketing)

https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/9250165#zippy=%2Clearn-about-radiators-and-radiant-heating%2Chow-true-radiant-works%2Ctrue-radiant-settings-and-opentherm-enabled-boilers

 

[jayc89]

1 hour ago, jayc89 said:

 

What's the best course of action with the towel rad? Reduce flow through it more than the other rads in an effort to avoid the bypass?

Thanks for the Baxi Relay docs, I'd seen it before, but I missed this sentence;

 

When a DHW demand is applied to the boiler the Outdoor Sensor is overridden.

 

Which mitigates my concern of the flow temp being too low on the WC curve for DHW. 

 

Thinking about this some more, @markocosic, I'm pretty sure the valves on the towel rad are already closed a fair bit, as I did this when I balanced the system, so I'm not 100% sure it is acting as a bypass - but I can check when I get back.

We do have an auto bypass valve in the airing cupboard which I believe is also there for this purpose (i.e. dump hot water back into the return pipe when the rads are shut off but the stat is still calling for hear)

https://www.screwfix.com/p/straight-auto-bypass-valve-22mm/4747V?tc=AA3&ds_kid=92700055281954502&ds_rl=1249404&gclid=CjwKCAjw7p6aBhBiEiwA83fGuu75_NdTru3ij_R-tjBKEXESrck8G5zIn2gQR4wFuKNIttYJWUH1VBoC8PMQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Could this be set up incorrectly? I don't know what pressure it should be set to though... One option I've seen is;

 

1. With boiler/system cool, set valve to max.
2. Switch heating system/boiler/pump on.
3. Reduce setting until valve is just open (by-pass/valve starts to get hot).
4. Turn adjuster back (anti-clockwise) one revolution (ie. valve closes).
5. Valve will automatically open when system flow reduces.

 

Is that the best way?

Edited October 13, 2022 by jayc89

[JohnMo]

I had a similar thing last winter, in that the min turn down of the boiler was above demand, even though I have a buffer there was issues transferring the excess heat to the buffer and way to many thermostats.  Made some changes over the winter and summer to improve things.  My gas consumption average last Oct was 44kWh per day, this year so far 15/16kWh per day (DHW and heating). 

 

First your heat demand kW, I assume are based on the coldest temp (design temp), it is unlikely you are at that temperature yet, so heat demand will be lower.  Therefore cause you more issues.

 

@markocosic says you can/should be able to set up the boiler to give weather compensation for the heating and fixed flow temp for the cylinder heating.

 

To get the most out of what you have, you should get both upstairs and downstairs to heat at the same time, as single zone and have as much flow through the whole system all the time as you can, to increase demand on the boiler.  It is likely your cycling is what using the gas, that almost exactly what mine did.  Not on for enough to to heat everything up, off long enough to cool down.  So goes into heating up lots of metal and water without doing much heating. 

 

You need to trim the flow temperature of the whole system downwards, so the trv and thermostats are not being made (set them a couple degrees higher than you need ( say 22-23).  If individual room are too hot, decrease the flow through the UFH / Radiator loop, if it need to be hotter do the opposite.

 

What you need to achieve, is a heating system that is just heating the room to the temperature you want and no more.  Thermostats sound good, but not sure they do you any favours.

 

[Radian]

38 minutes ago, jayc89 said:

We do have an auto bypass valve in the airing cupboard which I believe is also there for this purpose (i.e. dump hot water back into the return pipe when the rads are shut off but the stat is still calling for hear)

https://www.screwfix.com/p/straight-auto-bypass-valve-22mm/4747V?tc=AA3&ds_kid=92700055281954502&ds_rl=1249404&gclid=CjwKCAjw7p6aBhBiEiwA83fGuu75_NdTru3ij_R-tjBKEXESrck8G5zIn2gQR4wFuKNIttYJWUH1VBoC8PMQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Could this be set up incorrectly?

 

Never had one of those that actually worked properly. But I'm a cheapskate so always bought from SF or TS. Seriously, even screwed in all the way (so supposedly half a bar needed to open) it won't shut off even at 0.1 bar (my lowest pump setting). I've given up with them and use logic to keep one zone open (HW cylinder) when no call for heat. 5 minute pump overrun just tops up the tank with an extra couple of degrees.

[jayc89]

4 minutes ago, Radian said:

 

Never had one of those that actually worked properly. But I'm a cheapskate so always bought from SF or TS. Seriously, even screwed in all the way (so supposedly half a bar needed to open) it won't shut off even at 0.1 bar (my lowest pump setting). I've given up with them and use logic to keep one zone open (HW cylinder) when no call for heat. 5 minute pump overrun just tops up the tank with an extra couple of degrees.

 

I don't know this is the exact one the plumber fitted, but it looks similar! The rest of the stuff came from a local plumbers merchant so I'm at leats hopeful it's decent kit

[Radian]

33 minutes ago, jayc89 said:

 

I don't know this is the exact one the plumber fitted, but it looks similar! The rest of the stuff came from a local plumbers merchant so I'm at leats hopeful it's decent kit

So all you have to do for a crude test is wind it all the way in which should effectively close it when other rads are open, then feel the pipes either side. One side should feel much hotter than the other after a while. The fact you have towel rads without TRVs that give off some heat means the auto bypass is pretty redundant anyway. I'd certainly set it to 0.5bar and leave it at that to see what difference, if anything, it makes.

[jayc89]

Both flow and return pipes on the towel rad were indeed extremely hot.... I've turned them both to off and then opened them up a single turn, I'll continue playing with them until they give out just enough heat to keep the bathroom warm...

The auto bypass valve was also fully open (i.e. set to 0.1 bar). I followed the steps above, turned it off then slowly opened it until hot water started to flow through it. 

 

I've dropped the boiler flow temp to 60 and increased the UFH temp to 45, so we should be in condensing range for both zones now. I'm a little worried the UFH will now start overshooting the stat and we'll end up with hot spots in the screed, so I'll keep an eye on that over the weekend.

 

Pretty sad, I know, but I'm looking forward to seeing what the smart meter says over the next few days!

 

I'll get a weather comp unit ordered and speak to a plumber about getting it fitted. 

 

Thanks again for the fountain of knowledge, y'all! Is there anything else you think I can do right now?

[Radian]

2 minutes ago, jayc89 said:

I've dropped the boiler flow temp to 60

Steady on there, if DHW is set to 50^oC your boiler might not actually be able to meet that demand. The signs of it struggling would be lengthy run times at minimum modulation. Exactly what you don't need! You can try it for sure, but keep an eye on it. I'd start at 65^oC first and see how that goes.

[JohnMo]

With Radians comments and

 

Why would you want to increase the UFH flow temp.  Your thermostat will be on and off and make things worse.

 

Your making things worse not better.

 

 

[TonyT]

I would make changes slowly, and document the changes in a diary to let you see what works, recording as much data as possible 

 

we do this in commercial set ups with Building Management Systems controlling heating and ventilation systems.

 

 

[TonyT]

https://www.heatingcontrolsonline.co.uk/clipon-pipe-thermometer-p-644.html

 

something like these can be handy

[jayc89]

46 minutes ago, Radian said:

Steady on there, if DHW is set to 50^oC your boiler might not actually be able to meet that demand. The signs of it struggling would be lengthy run times at minimum modulation. Exactly what you don't need! You can try it for sure, but keep an eye on it. I'd start at 65^oC first and see how that goes.

 

It's a fair point. I'll keep an eye on it. Right now the DWH and upstairs rads are on and the flow temp is significantly lower than it was. 

 

23 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

With Radians comments and

 

Why would you want to increase the UFH flow temp.  Your thermostat will be on and off and make things worse.

 

Your making things worse not better.

 

 

 

Based on comments earlier in the thread. Overshooting the stat was exactly my concern too. 

 

1 minute ago, TonyT said:

https://www.heatingcontrolsonline.co.uk/clipon-pipe-thermometer-p-644.html

 

something like these can be handy

 

I have a couple of those already on the flow/return at the boiler. They're as much use as a chocolate fireguard. The thermometer on the flow is currently reporting 45 and the return 30, the flow is hot to touch, and the boiler states temp is currently 60 which I believe. 

[TonyT]

Ok that was just an example 

 

I use 2 of these

https://www.bes.co.uk/testo-115i-clamp-thermometer-smart-probe-23125/?ref=gs&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIl96q-_fd-gIVCLbtCh2T8wNKEAQYAiABEgImHfD_BwE

 

work a treat

[jayc89]

Upstairs rads have been on for the last couple of hours. Over the last hour, the boiler has been cycling every 10-15 minutes, I've gone to check the return at the boiler and it now matches the flow.

 

Upstairs, the majority of rads feel cooler, presumably because the TRV is kicking in, but the stat is still calling for heat. The rooms are certainly warmer than the hallway, where the stat and rad without a TRV is, so I assume that one needs opening up slightly so it's warming up at a similar speed to the rest and therefore the stat is reaching temp sooner and shutting off?

[Radian]

1 hour ago, TonyT said:

Ok that was just an example 

 

I use 2 of these

https://www.bes.co.uk/testo-115i-clamp-thermometer-smart-probe-23125/?ref=gs&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIl96q-_fd-gIVCLbtCh2T8wNKEAQYAiABEgImHfD_BwE

 

work a treat

 

I just can't imagine diagnosing any heating system without some sort of time-series plot of what's going on. This example of mine from January shows how the zone valve for HW wasn't quite closing properly, so when the UFH came on early in the morning, cold was able to circulate through the coil and rob the cylinder until it started going the other way. Just going by what came out the taps and the general feel of things would never reveal this.

 

[jayc89]

After tweaking the auto bypass valve, it's now "hissing" when the UFH zone first calls for heat. My assumption is this is whilst the (wax) actuators are opening as the heated water has no where to go. It doesn't "hiss" when the rad zone is on. Should this be expected?

[jayc89]

On my quest for cheaper energy bills I noticed a draught coming from under the airing cupboard today. Luckily, the room directly below it is currently back to brick and has a false ceiling (otherwise the downstairs room would be 4m+ tall) so I was able to cut a bit of that away to have a look from underneath instead. 

I found an old air brick, and what looks to be a 100mm hole in the wall, both are hidden externally by a lean-to roof. So I set to replacing a couple of bricks that had been cut into and temporarily covered the air brick. No more draughts and this evening I'm sweltering! The heating hasn't been on at all and we're still too warm, so I think I can drop the stat down a couple of degrees too. Happy days. 

 

Not quite worked out what the air brick was put in for, it's the only air brick we have in the entire house (downstairs floor is solid slab) and there's no signs of historic damp problems in the area...