Planning - visibility splays (why is it so frustrating)

[Kelvin]

Planning decision was due yesterday. 

 

Today we got an email saying they want visibility splays shown on the drawings. This is despite the transport planning department already saying they had no objections. They’ve had the planning application for 12 weeks. 
 

We shouldn’t have any problems with visibility. While there is a bend 43m away on the west side we have clear line of sight all the way around the bend and down the hill especially since I cut all the hedging back. However, the direct line of sight to the bend is under 60m. It’s a 40mph limit road but the traffic is typically going much slower than this so not sure if I ought to take a belts and braces approach and get a traffic survey done. I can get someone out to do a 7 day survey for £450 ex VAT. Any experience in this area? 
 

The planning authority is Perthshire and apparently they take a very common sense approach to transport matters rather than sticking strictly to the policy so hopefully it should be straightforward. 
 

 

[JohnMo]

 just measure back from rad edge X metres, then along the road x metres depending on the speed limit, see attached

trbo-advice-on-planning-for-small-development-march-2016.pdf

[Kelvin]

I have that document. The diagram example is similar  to my situation albeit a small boundary wall follows the edge of the verge to the road rather than cutting across the land. I've done some rough measurements and it seems to be fine. However, my thought was more about doing a traffic survey to show that the speed of the traffic is well below the speed limit especially coming round the bend and up the hill just to cover all bases. 

[Bonner]

They may be asking for more drawings to justify exceeding the target decision time. Just give them the drawing requested, a traffic survey is unlikely to be taken into consideration.

[Kelvin]

My architect is being a bit difficult about this. Says we need another survey rather than him just doing another drawing with the splays added. The earliest I can get a survey done is 4 to 5 weeks. But I’ve been looking at splays on the planning portal and many are simply hand drawn red lines drawn to scale on block drawings to show the splays and maybe some photographs so not sure why it needs surveyed again. I have a meeting with the architect on Monday. 

 

I’ve been down at the plot today I don’t think we’ll have any trouble with visibility. I’m going to have to cut more of the hedge down though which I’ll do tomorrow. 

[joe90]

I had no surveys just my own drawings proving it met regs! Just more money fir old rope by the sounds of it!!,!

Edited August 26, 2022 by joe90

[Kelvin]

Indeed. I’m going to draw it out myself cut the hedge back and take some pictures with a 50mm lens. 

[Temp]

On 25/08/2022 at 16:46, Kelvin said:

We shouldn’t have any problems with visibility. While there is a bend 43m away on the west side we have clear line of sight all the way around the bend and down the hill especially since I cut all the hedging back. However, the direct line of sight to the bend is under 60m.

 

Dont draw a line to the bend. I would draw a line of the required length for a 40mph road (60m?) from your driveway to wherever it meets the road around the bend. Shade the area that would need to be kept clear of obstructions over 1m. In your case it won't be a triangle because of the bend in the road. 

 

I would add a note to the diagram that says something like...

 

"The visibility splay requirements of ?? Meters for a 40mph can be met. All of the land within the required visibility splay is either public land/highway or owned by/under the control of the applicant".

 

Ideally reference the council policy document on visibility splays. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kelvin]

Thanks. I wasn’t going to draw a line to the bend on the submitted drawing. The picture above was just for reference. Over the weekend I cut the remaining hedging back to the boundary. I measured 2.4m in from the verge to the midpoint of the drive entrance then 1.05m up from the finished planned ground level and I can see well beyond 60m to the west (towards the bend) and to just over 60m east back up the hill. 
 

Something else to add to the plot buying due diligence whenever anyone asks what things should be considered. 

[ProDave]

Look at other recent planning applications nearby.

 

With mine, they tried asking for 90 metres of visibility (national speed limit, single track road with very little traffic, nobody ever goes that fast) and they also asked me to "demonstrate control" over the visibility splay which would have meant negotiating some deal with 3 neighbours.  then I found another planning application on the same road very close that had been passed with 60 metre visibility and no requirement to demonstrate control over the land.  When I pointed this out, they reduced mine to the same requirement.

[saveasteading]

On 25/08/2022 at 17:51, Kelvin said:

a traffic survey to show that the speed of the traffic is well below the speed limit

The speed limit for the road is the issue, and a survey won't change that. Also it would need just one car speeding stupidly round the corner to make the survey worse than not having one.

Save that option in case there is an objection.

 

If you can see the required distance now then I suggest taking photos of cars at that distance. Photo from the driver eye point.

A white car to make it easy to see.  

If I was a planner I would welcome that practical proof, and it could save them a visit.

Also promise to keep hedges down to the necessary height, if applicable.

 

[Kelvin]

I’ve taken exactly those photographs. We’ve submitted the splays today and offered the photographs if they need some visual evidence. There shouldn’t  be an issue with visibility as we meet the guidelines and I own all the land within the splays and there’s nothing now above 1.05m. 

 

The traffic survey is something that’s referenced in the traffic planning policy document they use as the guide. The company I spoke to about it conduct the survey over 7 days. Typically they look for at least 200 cars in the survey (100 each direction) so a few speeding cars won’t make a difference. I’ve spent weeks at the plot clearing the site of dead trees and gorse and never seen anyone speed on that road. I probably drive it faster than most. 😂 I’m surrounded by old folk and tractors so I reckon the average is below 30mph
 

 

[saveasteading]

17 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

a few speeding cars won’t make a difference.

I don't agree. If you are wanting to show that everyone slows down to below the limit, then that means everyone.

[Kelvin]

10 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

I don't agree. If you are wanting to show that everyone slows down to below the limit, then that means everyone.

That doesn’t make any logical sense because on any given stretch of road there will be someone that has gone way above the speed limit. 
 

The traffic survey results are used to show what the 85th percentile wet weather speeds are in each direction. 

[saveasteading]

Good point,  but I would still save a survey for later. The photos should do it (for non-technical PO) along with the marked plan.

[Kelvin]

Planning approved! They accepted my drawing. No pictures required. Warrant next. All the drawings are already done for that so submitting later this week. Finally feels like a big step forward! 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Kelvin