2k Based Primers and Paints for Kitchen Cabinet

[Zak S]

Hi, would really appreciate the guidance on  2k based two parts poly urethane primers and paints. Especially if they would be great for kitchen cabinet melamine with oak borders. 

 

Also given they contain arsenic (small level) I have bought radioactive style mask. What other protection do I need from health perspective. Thanks

[PeterW]

Your bigger issues are isocyanates not arsenic, and that you should be using a positive pressure mask not just a reactive mask. 2K isn’t something to play with - especially in confined spaces. If you want to paint that lot, just use the melamine paint and accept you’ll get a satin/matt finish

 

Also, read this 

 

https://www.hse.gov.uk/mvr/bodyshop/isocyanates.htm

 

[Zak S]

10 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Your bigger issues are isocyanates not arsenic, and that you should be using a positive pressure mask not just a reactive mask. 2K isn’t something to play with - especially in confined spaces. If you want to paint that lot, just use the melamine paint and accept you’ll get a satin/matt finish

 

Also, read this 

 

https://www.hse.gov.uk/mvr/bodyshop/isocyanates.htm

 

Wow. Not the stuff to be played with. Happy to learn but given it would be just one few coats on around 21 door, is it still significant risk?

[markc]

Just now, Zak S said:

Wow. Not the stuff to be played with. Happy to learn but given it would be just one few coats on around 21 door, is it still significant risk?

Yes! 2K is fantastic to use but the vapour is heavy and very harmful.

completely different to ‘normal’ aerosol cans where you apply lots of thin coats, 2K you lay down thick and fast

[Zak S]

11 minutes ago, markc said:

Yes! 2K is fantastic to use but the vapour is heavy and very harmful.

completely different to ‘normal’ aerosol cans where you apply lots of thin coats, 2K you lay down thick and fast

So is it OK to be used with this mask 

[JohnMo]

Is it aerosol 2k, professional spray gun isocyanate 2k as they are different things.

[Carrerahill]

1 hour ago, Zak S said:

Hi, would really appreciate the guidance on  2k based two parts poly urethane primers and paints. Especially if they would be great for kitchen cabinet melamine with oak borders. 

 

Also given they contain arsenic (small level) I have bought radioactive style mask. What other protection do I need from health perspective. Thanks

 

I have been painting for nearly 20 years, started out with a cheap gun and some white Hammerite to see what I could do and slowly progressed from there. In the early days a very friendly, former painter turned paint salesman gave me a lot of guidance on paints and how to work with them and the actual painting bit was just time and practise.

 

The first thing is prep, doesn’t matter what I am going to paint I always clean the whole lot with thinners/panel prep (thinners is better unless over 1K paints, but by that stage you shouldn’t be needing to degrease). Ban all silicone procuts from the area, even silicone sealant when off-gassing can contaminate a panel and cause it to fish-eye. After that I sand, if you sand greasy or contaminated substrates you are only spreading the contamination and pushing it into the scores created by the sanding. Scotch pads are fine for giving a generally good condition item, painted or not a rub down. The rest of the time I would use a combination of what is needed for the surface could be bad, 80 grit then 120 then 240 etc. Maybe just a light 400. Once clean degrease with clean lint-free cloths and thinners – keep using clean bits until you can see the panel is actually clean. You will be surprised.

 

For Something like a kitchen door I would hit with a 240 grit random orbital for a nice keyed flat finish, I might go up to 400 but doubt it.

 

Gun setup is a skill in itself, a gravity fed cup gun would be best, there are quite a few settings. First thing I do is wind the air control in until it is very low, then wind it out till I get what I know to be right, difficult to explain, but you want it to carry the paint in a fine mist, but not so much air that you create a dust cloud, you can actually paint with low air volume but it’s not great for the finish as the mist is not fine enough. The other setting is paint volume, you need to wind this in quite a bit so that when you pull the trigger 100% you don’t just shoot heaps or paint, I use trigger control to initially do my light mist blow in, then more trigger for the final coats. You also have a pattern control, narrow is great for very lightly blowing in an awkward bit or an edge but must be used carefully so I advise any novice painter not to. Go for about a 4-6” pattern. You can also control the pattern angle by rotating the front air cap, I always set my gun up with the spray pattern fan sitting vertical, so as I hold the gun naturally and pass over a panel side to side the paint is hitting the panel wide, if you set it the other way and go side to side you will cause runs and is only really good for painting tall things you cannot move so you are going up and down. As you move the gun keep it back about a foot from the panel and when you move keep the gun at the same distance to the panel, people often swing the gun resulting in the mid-point being close to the panel and the outer of the swing being further back which changes so many variables as you go that you will notice it on the paint. Start painting furthest away from you, this means if anything falls from your overall-clothes you get the chance to blow it off (pull the trigger enough to get air, but no paint).

 

For paint volumes for an average kitchen door, depending on paint, you would want about 30-40ml – for your first rodeo have a little extra to allow for some waste, but don’t be tempted to get it all on the door, its paint not plaster! A thin film of well adhered paint is all you need as long as you cannot see any shadowing or bleed through from primer which is why it is a good idea to use the right primer for the job, for light colours, like white, I like an offwhite or beige primer, white primer for white topcoat is bad because you cannot always see what is primer and what is topcoat and may miss bits.

 

I would then use a 1k primer or filler primer for these doors, I would however need to check adhesion of the primer on the melamine because you might need to use a plastic primer or get a direct adhesion primer. Do some tests, I’d use a dab of primer from the can onto the door and leave it for min. 36 hours, then use your fingernail to see how well it adhered, do not panic if fresh paint just comes off, the chemical adhesion is not good until full cure which is why new paint is so delicate.

 

The primer is the easiest to work with because it tends to lay down nicely and has good coverage so your not tempted to overpaint it. I use a 1.2mm nozzle for primer and mist it on finely to get the initial bond, round the edges or any tricky bits first, then the top (face of door), cross the panel across the shorter length and keep the paint flowing as you start and finish on the panel, overlay it a little, then lay it on in 2 slightly heavier coats after that tacks up and flashes off. If the primer starts to look quite glossy while you’re putting it on, you are putting on too much too soon, it should only ever look sort of satin/med gloss which is about right, matt is even better but that is very thin fast flash off territory.

 

You can leave primer for a while if you want, but once primer appears dry you can move on, depends what I am doing will depend if I flatten it, if the prep was good then the primer will look good and so will the next coat(s). I use IR lamps to speed things up but the garage door open on a summer days with air moving will have it touch dry within 20-40minutes.

 

I am assuming you will use a solid 2K colour, if not, apply basecoat with similar technique to primer, then treat your 2k lacquer as the following.

 

If the primer is perfect, I just move on. 2K paint is almost always 2 paint to 1 hardner and then I use about 10% thinners, if painting the doors on the flat I would paint them with 10-15% thinners. I use a 1.2mm or 1.4mm nozzle for 2K. Hit the doors edges first quickly with a light coat, then proceed across the door, same as primer really, let that tack, you should still be able to see primer after this coat, it is just a mist, then come across with the gun flowing at a higher volume of paint (I use trigger control but you can wind the pin in or out to control volume) keep the spray pattern wide for a novice as less chances of runs. After the first coast back off and wait, look across the garden or think about something else, even be tempted to hang the gun up, walk away, take your mask off and just look at something else for 1-2 minutes because human nature is to keep blasting on paint, there really is no rush. Now add another coat. Once the panel is basically fully covered and looks “done” tip your paint back into your mixing cup and add a dash more thinners, swirl that up and tip back into your gun, on a high volume spray and wide pattern, mist the whole panel with over lap briskly (but not too fast) from side to side, the extra thinned paint will land on the existing coats, the solvent will help to level the paint and you should, if you get it right, be left with a really really smooth and if gloss paint, really really glossy finish. However, be very careful, too narrow a spray pattern or too slow and you will cause a run at this stage. If when you think you are done the panel looks dry or matt, its not “wet” enough. You need more paint on it, that will dry as orange peel. I have intentionally created a textured or “dry” finish before and that is lots of paint, wide pattern, lots of air and too far back, result can be almost chalky with the right paint, not good for kitchen cabinets! If it looks dry, get another pass on it with higher paint flow, even if you have run out of paint, go quickly mix up enough for 1 more pass and you will be fine.

 

Have a bright light or torch handy, when you’re done, shine it over the panel looking for dry bits or bits that are a bit thin, quickly just mist over that whole bit again once the last coat has tacked a bit, 2-3 minutes.

 

Now, screw ups. If you make a mistake on primer, don’t worry, it just means you will need to flatten it, let it cure well (too soon it will bog down and clog the paper or peel/rub off), and then 1200 it to remove specks or runs, flatten it and blend it all, you should not need to blow in more primer if you are careful. If you make a mistake on 2k, don’t panic either. Just leave it, do not even think about trying to rectify it at this stage. Walk away and clean your gun.

 

After about 12 hours you can take water and 1200 or 2400 grit to 2k no bother, dampen it down, little block and sand out any runs or imperfections, always use a block or your fingers might cause the paper to rub through the paint. Once the defect has gone you can use Farecla rubbing compound (basically like a very fine sand paper) followed by Farecla finishing compound (Halfords do their own version in little tubes too) OR you can lightly rubdown the whole panel/door etc. and hit with a very fine, 20-25% thinned 2K and just mist it on to refinish the door.

 

H&S – 2k paint hardener contains isocyanides and 2K will set like jelly, if you breath it in you end up with that in your lungs, you may fall over and end up in a very bad way, some people cannot cope with it at all. So, you need to take care. They recommend you wear an airfed mask, but I use a full face cover 2M mask with FPP3 filters over organic/inorganic gas and vapour filters which will cover all the nasties. When wearing the mask, I cannot even smell the paint. Make sure you spec your mask up with the right filters. Not sure what you mean by radioactive style, radioactive protection is just dust protection so you don’t breath in radioactive particles, for painting 2K you actually need higher protection believe it or not. I would also consider painting outside on a slightly breezy day, this does bring with it issues though, but I quite often paint outside, I painted outside at the weekend and didn’t get a single bit of dust or anything stuck in the paint, if outside conditions are not good I paint in my garage, I raise the door about 2 feet and have plywood boards with huge car fans mounted in them, then get jammed in to extract from floor level, I then open the side door, with the fans running I can sand and paint in the garage and there is not even so much as a hint of a haze in the garage, I still of course wear the mask. Also wear gloves at all times and ideally lint-free long sleeves because the paint landing on your skin can be absorbed. These H&S tips are not perfect, but it works for me.

 

I would get your gun setup with some cheap thinned emulsion and practise, practise the spray pattern adjustment, practise the air volume and the paint volume (pin) control.

 

Anything else, key to your painting, just ask.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Carrerahill
Spelling

[Carrerahill]

5 minutes ago, Zak S said:

So is it OK to be used with this mask 

IF loaded with the right filters yes - read my big post above.

[Zak S]

17 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Is it aerosol 2k, professional spray gun isocyanate 2k as they are different things.

No not aerosol. Using HVLP spray gun.

[Zak S]

25 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

painting 2K you actually need higher protection believe it or not.

Would you recommend a model?

[Zak S]

27 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

, I raise the door about 2 feet and have plywood boards with huge car fans mounted in them, then get jammed in to extract from floor level, I then open the side door, with the fans running I can sand and paint in the garage and there is not even so much as a hint of a haze in the garage, I still of course wear the mask. Also wear gloves at all times and ideally lint-free long sleeves because the paint landing on your skin can be absorbed. These H&S tips are not perfect, but it works for me.

Is there any chance you could share the set up via pic/image, that would bring it to life for me and become an idiot proof.

[Carrerahill]

9 minutes ago, Zak S said:

Would you recommend a model?

Off the top of my head I think the 3M 6057 will do organic gas & vapour - which is basically your petrochem based solvents and paints but also inorganic gas & vapour which I like to have because etch primers etc. can have inorganic chemicals in the makeup. 

 

There are so many in the 3M range, make sure you add a dust filter on top of the cartridge, on the 3M 6057 I list above, you then get a little pad of filter material that click on top with a retention bezel, get the best filtration which is FFP3. You can change these more frequently but the cartridges are good for 12 months or when breathing feel laboured through them. 

 

This setup is also good for doing MDF/PLY because it covers the dust but also any formaldehyde (or other resins) or off gassing from cutting the material. 

[Zak S]

6 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

 

There are so many in the 3M range, make sure you add a dust filter on top of the cartridge, on the 3M 6057 I list above, you then get a little pad of filter material that click on top with a retention bezel, get the best filtration which is FFP3. You can change these more frequently but the cartridges are good for 12 months or when breathing feel laboured through them. 

I have checked the mask I had bought and just this one. Is this any good?

 

The paint primers collection is also here. Any insight/comments would be welcome.

[Carrerahill]

10 hours ago, Zak S said:

I have checked the mask I had bought and just this one. Is this any good?

 

The paint primers collection is also here. Any insight/comments would be welcome.

That mask looks reasonable enough, but I think those filter caps are just a dust filter, it would stop the paint particles but not the vapours and gases from the various solvents and chemicals in the paint. Check with the manufacturers datasheets and see what filter it is and what cartridges are available. If unopened and not suitable I’d keep it for general dusty work on your house, or flog on eBay and get a 3M full face mask as you should really protect your eyes too but not critical if you paint outside or in well ventilated areas – I used a ½ face 3M mask like that for years before I upgraded to the full face.

 

The paint looks fine, it will be good tough paint for sure, my only comment would be don’t use 2k primer going forward, you have it now, fine, just use it, but 1k primer is easier to use, you can literally just thin some, tip it in the gun in any quantity etc. no need to mix up properly. It also means you are reducing your exposure to isocyanide products. If clean you can also tip spare back into the can as it won’t harden in a sealed tin, catalysed 2K will begin to cure immediately.

[Zak S]

4 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

That mask looks reasonable enough, but I think those filter caps are just a dust filter, it would stop the paint particles but not the vapours and gases from the various solvents and chemicals in the paint. Check with the manufacturers datasheets and see what filter it is and what cartridges are available. If unopened and not suitable I’d keep it for general dusty work on your house, or flog on eBay and get a 3M full face mask as you should really protect your eyes too but not critical if you paint outside or in well ventilated areas – I used a ½ face 3M mask like that for years before I upgraded to the full face.

 

The paint looks fine, it will be good tough paint for sure, my only comment would be don’t use 2k primer going forward, you have it now, fine, just use it, but 1k primer is easier to use, you can literally just thin some, tip it in the gun in any quantity etc. no need to mix up properly. It also means you are reducing your exposure to isocyanide products. If clean you can also tip spare back into the can as it won’t harden in a sealed tin, catalysed 2K will begin to cure immediately.

Thanks. Much appreciated. It will be great to see the output if your 2K painting. I am sure it would be great.

[Carrerahill]

8 minutes ago, Zak S said:

Thanks. Much appreciated. It will be great to see the output if your 2K painting. I am sure it would be great.

This was last night, perfect painting conditions, light breeze, warm evening, wife and son & dog out, bit of sun, I sprayed the patio with the hose before I started to dampen it, helps reduce dust, finish is about 98% perfect, I have 2 defects on "seen" parts, both tiny and once installed I don't think I could even find them again. If it was a bonnet or door or kitchen door, both of those defects would be resolved with localised 2400 grit paper, then some rubbing compound followed by finishing over the whole panel or a local fade depending on the result. 

 

For that seatbox (from a Land Rover) it took about 120ml of paint, that included the battery box under the passenger side seat area, the last coat was 10% more thinner for a high gloss finish, also easy clean! I am very pleased, and if I had not been, I have more paint and a lots of sanding paper/discs in stock!

 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Carrerahill

[Zak S]

8 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

This was last night, perfect painting conditions, light breeze, warm evening, wife and son & dog out, bit of sun, I sprayed the patio with the hose before I started to dampen it, helps reduce dust, finish is about 98% perfect, I have 2 defects on "seen" parts, both tiny and once installed I don't think I could even find them again. If it was a bonnet or door or kitchen door, both of those defects would be resolved with localised 2400 grit paper, then some rubbing compound followed by finishing over the whole panel or a local fade depending on the result. 

 

For that seatbox (from a Land Rover) it took about 120ml of paint, that included the battery box under the passenger side seat area, the last coat was 10% more thinner for a high gloss finish, also easy clean! I am very pleased, and if I had not been, I have more paint and a lots of sanding paper/discs in stock!

 

 

Look perfect. We'll done. Thanks for sharing the tips. I will surely need as many tips ss possible. Is it possible to paint door and cabinet without taking the doors off the hinges. The tiles will be repainted or retired and work top installed with née sink and taps. So no issue with spray mist going every where. Can the door be dried vertically?

[Adsibob]

On 08/08/2022 at 15:33, Zak S said:

Would you recommend a model?

I would pay @Carrerahill to paint it.

[Carrerahill]

9 hours ago, Zak S said:

Look perfect. We'll done. Thanks for sharing the tips. I will surely need as many tips ss possible. Is it possible to paint door and cabinet without taking the doors off the hinges. The tiles will be repainted or retired and work top installed with née sink and taps. So no issue with spray mist going every where. Can the door be dried vertically?

You can paint any object in any orientation, however, it does make it more difficult overall. Can you not unclip the hinges or just back off the two screws and take them somewhere you can work on them flat on a trestle?

 

Are you planning on painting the insides of the doors too? If yes I would lay them all out on their fronts, paint the backs with some primer and give them a coat, make that your test batch, if not perfect, you might be able to live with it.

 

Then after that backs have had 3 days to cure well, turn them over and do the fronts and sides keeping the gun pointing at a downward angle at all the times to stop paint hitting your newly finished backs.

 

If you really need to do them in situ, I would get some masking and mask off the cabinets themselves, mast the hinge up to the point it meets the door and using a scalpel or Stanley knife blade, cut round the hinge perfectly to get a nice finish. This way you can then open the door, spray round the back and sides and get it all in 1 go, but take longer between coats and reduce your thinner a bit as runs will be much more likely for a beginner painter. I personally, would not paint them in situ, I think you might be creating a fair bit of hassle for yourself, unless the hinges are so crusty you fear touching them.

 

[Zak S]

12 hours ago, Adsibob said:

I would pay @Carrerahill to paint it.

Or become a trainee with @Carrerahill

[Zak S]

2 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

You can paint any object in any orientation, however, it does make it more difficult overall. Can you not unclip the hinges or just back off the two screws and take them somewhere you can work on them flat on a trestle?

 

Are you planning on painting the insides of the doors too? If yes I would lay them all out on their fronts, paint the backs with some primer and give them a coat, make that your test batch, if not perfect, you might be able to live with it.

 

Then after that backs have had 3 days to cure well, turn them over and do the fronts and sides keeping the gun pointing at a downward angle at all the times to stop paint hitting your newly finished backs.

 

If you really need to do them in situ, I would get some masking and mask off the cabinets themselves, mast the hinge up to the point it meets the door and using a scalpel or Stanley knife blade, cut round the hinge perfectly to get a nice finish. This way you can then open the door, spray round the back and sides and get it all in 1 go, but take longer between coats and reduce your thinner a bit as runs will be much more likely for a beginner painter. I personally, would not paint them in situ, I think you might be creating a fair bit of hassle for yourself, unless the hinges are so crusty you fear touching them.

 

I can take them off but just worried that once I paint the second side, first side will be spoiled or the edging might get smudged. If the paint dries and get hardened in a day then I might be OK. But it just a worry.

[Carrerahill]

5 minutes ago, Zak S said:

I can take them off but just worried that once I paint the second side, first side will be spoiled or the edging might get smudged. If the paint dries and get hardened in a day then I might be OK. But it just a worry.

No it will be OK, it's not tough only 1-2 days in but that bit I painted on Monday, I fitted last night and its now bolted in and up against other metal etc. with no issues, care needs to be taken, I used foam gaskets between all the bits to stop metal on metal contact rubbing through the paint.

 

If you were to paint all the backs say this weekend, you could move onto the fronts by Tuesday, I would rest them on some trestles with some soft covering, painters usually cover their workbenches in felt to handle and work on dried panels, or make a hanging rig (I use hooks on the workshop roof trusses). 

 

 

[Carrerahill]

12 minutes ago, Zak S said:

Or become a trainee with @Carrerahill

If you were close to Glasgow I would happily. I don't have anything to paint now for a while (unless I start another project) so you would need to bring your doors! 

[Zak S]

I am on West Midlands near Warwickshire but thank so much so it might be a long commute. I will give a go based on your great tips and see how it pans out 👍. Yes I am planning to paint the inside of the cabinets hence apart from the hob and hood and window nothing else would need masking but painting vertically the paint might run down hence painting flat horizontally you advise would be better.

 

I might buy the paint drying rack and work stand to help with the job.

 

 

[Zak S]

Is the workstand (you have in the pic) above good in terms of holding items while you paint?