ASHP fitters - Industry Standard?

[Tony K]

Hi All

I have paid for an ASHP design and supply, but as I lack the time, skill, experience and joie de vie to fit it myself, I now need to find a decent installer.

 

I have seen more than one horror story about under qualified firms and/or individuals out there, falsely claiming to be able to fit ASHPs properly when in fact they can't fit them at all or (perhaps even worse) can only fit them badly, but not so badly that it would be obvious to a novice like me. 

 

Is there any kind of industry standard, or other red / green flags I can look for when assessing quotes from installers?

 

Thanks

Edited August 4, 2022 by Tony K

[JohnMo]

I think the quality of general training on heat pumps for plumbers is almost non existent.  Heat geek, do specialist training and have a database of people that have passed their training (as opposed to just attended).  So may be worth a look.

 

The basis of any good heating system starts with a heat loss calculation.  You say you have paid for a design and supply, so assume you have the heat pump?  Is this for a new or existing property?

[PeterW]

22 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

I think the quality of general training on heat pumps for plumbers is almost non existent.  Heat geek, do specialist training and have a database of people that have passed their training (as opposed to just attended).

So it’s interesting what is called “specialist training” as I’ve been on a couple and tbh they spend less time on the important stuff and more time on meeting their MIs. When you start asking questions such as “how do I change the flow curves for a low energy house” there are blank looks from the trainers who are essentially following a training manual. 
 

In terms of “passing” their training then very rarely there is an exam at the end - on one we plumbed in a “dumb” ASHP unit that basically has a loop of pipe inside and then pressure tested it, hooked up 6 wires and that was it. “Programming” was follow the installer guide that has the correct settings in bold on the pages ….

 

Heat Geek is also just a referral website owned by the same 2 directors who run Vito Energy in Surrey - their “installers training” is actually shadowing on their own installations. 
 

If you want a good ASHP engineer then go and find your local refrigeration engineers - they have been doing this stuff for years, and I’d trust someone with an F-Gas cert more than I would someone with a certificate from a single manufacturer. 

 

 

[JohnMo]

Think the problems may stem from a lot of monkey see monkey do, the trainer is giving a set syllabus and may not be that well versed in thermodynamics, have little or no understanding of when zoning is or isn't appropriate or the reason why. Or for that matter how to get a good CoP from a HP.

 

Trouble is you can get away with a mediocre gas boiler installation and no one knows any different as gas is cheap.  A mediocre HP install can have a bad CoP, electricity is expensive, so end with a big bill each month.

[PeterW]

@JohnMo I totally agree !!! And some of the training just becomes training in bad practice ..!!

[Tony K]

Thanks for the pointers.

Don't suppose anyone has used an ASHP fitter in the south east that they can recommend?

[JohnMo]

It's worth a look

https://www.heatgeek.com/find-a-heat-geek/

[joth]

7 hours ago, Tony K said:

Is there any kind of industry standard

 

Obvious answer is the government backed industry standard for design and install is MCS accreditation, but we don't like that here as it locks out DIYers.

 

[JohnMo]

Not sure about that, MCS best practice guide consists of about 25 pages of technical bits and 40 odd pages of contractual stuff.

 

 

[Kelvin]

How is your average punter going to know what’s a good bad or indifferent install? I am reasonably technical but wouldn’t have a clue if it was a bad install until it was too late. 

 

I am getting a quote from a dedicated ASHP company. It’s what they mostly do. It so happens I know the owner and trust him and because of this I am going with him. Otherwise it seems a bit of a crapshoot. 

[Roger440]

Looking a bit like the car industry. Technology has galloped along leaving all but a few of the smarter individuals in its wake.

 

I'll sit it out for few years and come back to it when its matured a bit and theres a lot more practical experience.

[SteamyTea]

12 hours ago, Roger440 said:

Looking a bit like the car industry. Technology has galloped along leaving all but a few of the smarter individuals in its wake

Odd, I studied automotive engineering over 40 years ago.

Not changed significantly. The basics are the same, and now you can plug in a relatively cheap diagnostic computer and it tells you where to look.

Having said that, 30 years ago  my 205 GTi developed a common misfire, 3 CPU units later (at Peugeot's expense) it was still there. I suggested that it might be the inlet temperature sensor. 

£7.50 later, problem solved.

Was over 30 years ago.

The one option at university we did not take up in 1981 was Vehicle Electronic System. Probably just as well as the lecturers knew jack shit about them.

 

[Tony K]

13 hours ago, Kelvin said:

How is your average punter going to know what’s a good bad or indifferent install? I am reasonably technical but wouldn’t have a clue if it was a bad install until it was too late. 

 

I am getting a quote from a dedicated ASHP company. It’s what they mostly do. It so happens I know the owner and trust him and because of this I am going with him. Otherwise it seems a bit of a crapshoot. 

 

This is precisely my point @Kelvin.

 

Would you be able to share the details of the firm you trust? (Obviously I appreciate you can't vouch for them beyond your comment above).

[Luke1]

20 hours ago, Tony K said:

Thanks for the pointers.

Don't suppose anyone has used an ASHP fitter in the south east that they can recommend?

Where abouts are you based? 

I used a company called K A Stripp Ltd based in Headcorn.

Installation was great, and worked around my timescales. I had to tune the Weather Compensation curve myself. Living in the house makes this much easier than someone coming in trying to do it though.

Given that you are on this forum then you will be able to to tune it yourself and you just need to make sure the calculations are right and they have specc'd a heat pump that you want to use.

 

I chose this company over other companies on the basis that they were happy to install the full system (house was previously storage heaters), all other companies I tried only wanted to fit the ASHP and I would have to find a separate plumber to do the UFH, Radiators and ancillary H+C pipework. 

[Roger440]

8 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Odd, I studied automotive engineering over 40 years ago.

Not changed significantly. The basics are the same, and now you can plug in a relatively cheap diagnostic computer and it tells you where to look.

Having said that, 30 years ago  my 205 GTi developed a common misfire, 3 CPU units later (at Peugeot's expense) it was still there. I suggested that it might be the inlet temperature sensor. 

£7.50 later, problem solved.

Was over 30 years ago.

The one option at university we did not take up in 1981 was Vehicle Electronic System. Probably just as well as the lecturers knew jack shit about them.

 

 

Mechanically, no, it hasnt changed much. Electronically, its a huge leap.

 

Which has left a lot of them behind. And, to be completely honest, me to a certain extent. I ran an automotive workshop for 13 years. Even in that space of time, the developments were significant. Your traditional automotive technician are mostly just guessing at problems. Usually at the customers expense.

 

You say its releatively easy with diagnostics. Well, it would be if you have a grasp of how the car works. But they invariably dont. A really easy example. Car wont start and run. Diagnostic says crank sensor. So they change the sensor. Oddly, that doesnt fix it. So then they say, it must be the ECU. If allowed, they change that too. Of course, it was just the wiring to the sensor. But they simply cant grasp that the ecu is looking for a signal. If the loop isnt completed it falls over. Because the diagnostic says sensor, they change it. Zero comprehension. I would say more than 75% of sensor faults, were not the sensors. MAF sensor faults. I reckon 99% are air leaks. Hole in the pipe. If i had a pound for every sensor changed in the UK in a year i would be a millionaire.

 

Of course, there are people that do understand it. But you wont find them working in a cold draughty shed covered in oil and dirt. They will have a "proper" job. I did manage to employ someone who was good at this, but his mechanical skills were hopeless. Problem was, i just didnt, nor ever would have, enough of that type work to justify such a person.

 

In reality, most of the garages locally, when faced with a problem they didnt understand would take it to the one bloke locally who did. The guy is a legend, and has no doubt forgotton more than ill ever know. The mass of equipment he has is something else too! But he is one guy. He cant do everything.

 

The lack of any actual solution to dealing with it is one of the reasons we closed the business in the end. There just isnt the people out there that understand. Accepted that im in the south east, and that makes the situation worse. But thats where a lot of people live.

 

I see ASHP and related as much the same. You have traditional plumbers, who all of a sudden now need to understand a whole new area/technology. There will be smart ones who can and want to learn, and do. They will be very succesful. But they will be a small percentage. Thats not going to be enough to install these systems at any meaningful scale. But they will still be installed. Badly. By people who dont understand.

 

I dont suggest i have the answers. Just an observation.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Roger440

[Kelvin]

9 hours ago, Tony K said:

 

This is precisely my point @Kelvin.

 

Would you be able to share the details of the firm you trust? (Obviously I appreciate you can't vouch for them beyond your comment above).

I’m in Scotland so a bit far. It is a bit of a minefield overall. 

[JohnMo]

Good observations.  There will more issues now electric vehicles are becoming main stream.  Most repairers not being suitably qualified to touch the high voltage side of things.  The mainstream workshop not having a scrubbie where to start.

 

The same is mostly true with heat pumps and more generally for any low temperature heating system, especially when also coupled with a low heating demand house.  Everything they have been told for years, is now not really suitable or not going to work efficiently.