Beam & Block Detail for Nudura...

[Mulberry View]

We've just received our Tech/Structural Pack and are trying to get our heads around it.

 

We have a 600x300 Strip Foundation, 50mm Oversite Concrete, 150mm Void, then Beam & Block.

 

I can't easily see how the B&B interacts with the Nudura and at what point the B&B is installed in relation to the blocks/wall concrete?

[nod]

150 void doesn’t sound much  

 

 

[Mulberry View]

2 minutes ago, nod said:

150 void doesn’t sound much  

 

 

 

 

It does say 'minimum', the Architect seems to ask for 225mm, is this more 'normal'?

[nod]

I’ve just finished the foundations BC asked for 300 mil void

I wouldn’t have got my internal drains in with anything less 

[FM2015]

Get him to design a slab and cut out loads of stages?

ICF rising walls?

 

Trench fill is just a waste of time and materials.

 

So are starter bars.  Can recall seeing starter bars on timber frame or masonry builds.  Obviously ICF building like to slip off their footings 🧐

[Russell griffiths]

Try to get your block n beam removed and do a slab. 
it’s one of the parts of my build I hate. 

[Adrian Walker]

3 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

Try to get your block n beam removed and do a slab. 
it’s one of the parts of my build I hate. 

 

I totally agree

[Mulberry View]

21 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

Try to get your block n beam removed and do a slab. 
it’s one of the parts of my build I hate. 

 

Oh, whyso? It's a tricky site to get wet Concrete into, that might be the reason for limiting the need for it?

[Russell griffiths]

1 hour ago, Mulberry View said:

 

Oh, whyso? It's a tricky site to get wet Concrete into, that might be the reason for limiting the need for it?

So how are you poring your Nudura walls, you will need room for a very large pump and a concrete truck. 
I don’t like the floor as there is a definite vibration to it if you drop something heavy. 
this could be Doo to the screed on top of insulation. 
but I wish I had of gone solid floor. 

[Russell griffiths]

I did use beam n block with my Nudura and think I have a mega set up, I might not recommend doing it the way I did as it was very labour intensive. 
 

[Mulberry View]

19 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

So how are you poring your Nudura walls, you will need room for a very large pump and a concrete truck. 
I don’t like the floor as there is a definite vibration to it if you drop something heavy. 
this could be Doo to the screed on top of insulation. 
but I wish I had of gone solid floor. 

 

Wait... What? Pumped concrete for ICF? Dang, I missed that one.

 

(a light-hearted joke by the way)

 

I'm fully aware of the need for pumped concrete and have a 'workaround', but it is just that and not something I can overuse. We have to essentially deliver the concrete into the plot entirely from privately-owned land, so it's a great risk. I'll have permission, but I cannot take the pi** and risk them simply 'shutting the door' when I'm halfway through a wall-pour.

[Russell griffiths]

2 minutes ago, Mulberry View said:

 

Wait... What? Pumped concrete for ICF? Dang, I missed that one.

 

(a light-hearted joke by the way)

 

I'm fully aware of the need for pumped concrete and have a 'workaround', but it is just that and not something I can overuse. We have to essentially deliver the concrete into the plot entirely from privately-owned land, so it's a great risk. I'll have permission, but I cannot take the pi** and risk them simply 'shutting the door' when I'm halfway through a wall-pour.

Ok so block n beam. 
make sure you over spec it. Use larger than specified beams, and double them up more often than is specified to reduce the bounce. 
like everything they design to the bare minimum. 
regarding your concrete delivery. 
should you go and pay your neighbours and get a signed contract. 
if after you first pour they tell you to sod off, what then. 
it’s a big gamble on someone’s good will. 

 

 

[Mulberry View]

1 minute ago, Russell griffiths said:

Ok so block n beam. 
make sure you over spec it. Use larger than specified beams, and double them up more often than is specified to reduce the bounce. 
like everything they design to the bare minimum. 
regarding your concrete delivery. 
should you go and pay your neighbours and get a signed contract. 
if after you first pour they tell you to sod off, what then. 
it’s a big gamble on someone’s good will. 

 

 

 

We're in the mindset with the Pozi joists too as I'd heard they have a tendency to creak etc and that's one thing I literally cannot comprehend.

 

Good advice, thanks for that. I'd have never expected the B&B to create a 'bouncy' floor, so I'll certainly be asking questions.

 

We know ours is a challenging plot, the main access can only take a 4-wheel chassis, so a Minimix at best. We've had a 10-tonne 4-wheel tipper up here, but that's pretty tight. The price we're paying for what was essentially a free but so lovely 0.6 acre plot.

 

So @Russell griffiths, can you enlighten me on how the B&B is installed please? Is it before the first wall pour?

[Russell griffiths]

Regarding your comment about needing a concrete pump, there has been talk on here where people thought you could pour the concrete with a couple of people with buckets. 
so it pays to check, there are a few loonies about. 
the pic is how I did mine, I know another lad who did the same, a lot of work but you end up with the ends of the beams locked into the walls. 

[Nickfromwales]

If you’re stuck with B&B, then do yourself a HUGE favour and install Beamsheild / other instead of the concrete blocks!!

B&B founds are the anti-Christ imo, and the last thing I’d ever want is a sub-zero hoolie blowing under my heated slab in the winter.

[Nickfromwales]

That you can carry on a pickup truck so less annoyance of the neighbours also, with not having to get so many palletised block deliveries in  

[FM2015]

11 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

Regarding your comment about needing a concrete pump, there has been talk on here where people thought you could pour the concrete with a couple of people with buckets. 
so it pays to check, there are a few loonies about. 
the pic is how I did mine, I know another lad who did the same, a lot of work but you end up with the ends of the beams locked into the walls. 

You using v clips on that?

Often find that concrete will hit the edge of the beam and splash outwards.  The extra pressure increasing the chance of a first course blow out.

[Mulberry View]

8 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

If you’re stuck with B&B, then do yourself a HUGE favour and install Beamsheild / other instead of the concrete blocks!!

B&B founds are the anti-Christ imo, and the last thing I’d ever want is a sub-zero hoolie blowing under my heated slab in the winter.

 

That's interesting. So an EPS type infill instead of the concrete blocks? What's the downside?!

[Mulberry View]

@Russell griffithsWhat were your beam spans like? I gather 5m spans are at the limit? Our longest span appears to be 3.7m, so perhaps the Architect has already accounted for the known problems. I do find it strange that the Architect, who is highly Eco-minded, hasn't mentioned the EPS route though.

[Nickfromwales]

58 minutes ago, Mulberry View said:

 

That's interesting. So an EPS type infill instead of the concrete blocks? What's the downside?!

AFAIC there is only a downside to NOT doing the Beamshield. Another member offered up a link to a similar product, but that one did not go underslung as well as infill in between the beams as the Beamshield product does. Utter no-brainer with B&B as it is a huge lift in spec / performance and the mechanical handling is vastly minimised. Why buy cold bridging blocks when you can replace it with insulation?!

[Nickfromwales]

30 minutes ago, Mulberry View said:

I do find it strange that the Architect, who is highly Eco-minded, hasn't mentioned the EPS route though.

 yes, there are a couple out there who profess to be "eco" / "green" etc, but sadly the more I see, the more I get frustrated.

[Mulberry View]

12 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

AFAIC there is only a downside to NOT doing the Beamshield. Another member offered up a link to a similar product, but that one did not go underslung as well as infill in between the beams as the Beamshield product does. Utter no-brainer with B&B as it is a huge lift in spec / performance and the mechanical handling is vastly minimised. Why buy cold bridging blocks when you can replace it with insulation?!

 

I've just spoken with Springvale about Beamshield and the standout disadvantage is the vulnerability of the product while completing the onward work. They ideally want the screed down as soon as possible, which is, of course, tricky if UFH is required (it is for us). The 'workaround' appears to be putting down a protective plywood layer (££££) until we're ready to get the UFH in and screeded. So this will have to be factored into the cost.

 

I think I've understood correctly that the Beamshield system deals with the whole subfloor structure from inbetween the concrete beam up to the underneath of the screed, thus accounting for the 150mm 'Celotex' layer.

[Nickfromwales]

4 minutes ago, Mulberry View said:

I've just spoken with Springvale about Beamshield and the standout disadvantage is the vulnerability of the product while completing the onward work. They ideally want the screed down as soon as possible, which is, of course, tricky if UFH is required (it is for us). The 'workaround' appears to be putting down a protective plywood layer (££££) until we're ready to get the UFH in and screeded. So this will have to be factored into the cost.

I wouldn't do it any other way. Check gumtree etc for damaged / seconds 8x4 plywood, OR cover in Egger and reclaim it for the 1st floor installation ( keeping them as tidy as you can of course by temporarily fitting them upside down ). Basically, I'd find any way to make this happen.

 

8 minutes ago, Mulberry View said:

I think I've understood correctly that the Beamshield system deals with the whole subfloor structure from inbetween the concrete beam up to the underneath of the screed, thus accounting for the 150mm 'Celotex' layer.

It goes underneath the beams too. Check out the Youtube videos from the company. HUGE improvement on a regular B&B floor. The 150mm goes atop the then-insulated beams.

[Mulberry View]

3 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

I wouldn't do it any other way. Check gumtree etc for damaged / seconds 8x4 plywood, OR cover in Egger and reclaim it for the 1st floor installation ( keeping them as tidy as you can of course by temporarily fitting them upside down ). Basically, I'd find any way to make this happen.

 

It goes underneath the beams too. Check out the Youtube videos from the company. HUGE improvement on a regular B&B floor. The 150mm goes atop the then-insulated beams.

 

Oh yes, I see. That's the 'Plus' product. I've sent them my plans, they're going to refer me to a distributor that can quote on the beams and their product.

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, Mulberry View said:

 

Oh yes, I see. That's the 'Plus' product. I've sent them my plans, they're going to refer me to a distributor that can quote on the beams and their product.

Are you absolutely sure you cannot go strip founds and infill between with insulated slabs, eg thus negating the B&B floor altogether?