Tree Roots

[Invader75]

Hello folks,

 

We're looking at building a timber frame annexe in our garden. Whilst we don't have many full grown large trees within the plot, our neighbours do either side and at the end. We're looking at using https://stop-digging.co.uk/ but were wondering what the best way to find out about condition of the trees and if it's safe to build potentially, underneath the branches. 

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers

[PeterW]

Hi and welcome :-)

 

Where you say "annexe" is this attached to the house or more of a garden room..? Reason is whether building regs apply so the answer on trees may be different !

 

In terms of the trees themselves, have you got a rough plan of where they are and what types..? You can build under trees with no issues however it depends what type of tree and the age - the safety of any tree is the owners responsibility and the neighbours should be managing that part.

 

If you've got any plans or photos it may help with identifying the options.

[AliG]

I had this issue on my build.

 

Assuming that what you are building needs planning permission there is a good chance that the neighbours will be a pain about it. Basically by building trees on your neighbour's boundary and allowing them to overhang it you may as well end up owning that part of their garden.

 

If you apply for planning there is a good chance they will want a tree survey and it will have to include trees adjacent to the boundary. The surveyor will then be asked to write a report signing off on your building methodology and that it won't affect the trees.

 

You might be able to argue that it is a lightweight timber structure and you won't be digging foundations, I don't know if they have leeway to then not require a report in this situation. In my experience they wanted waste of time and money reports for everything but this was for a house.

[Invader75]

Hi, thanks for the reply. 

It's going to be a granny annexe and separate from the house. 

This is a VERY quick rough look of the plot. I'd say the trees are the height of the house (1930's semi's) so fairly mature. Wondering if I need to contact a surveyor or a tree surgeon? Or, speak to neighbours first.

[Invader75]

To add to this. We have a good relationship with neighbours either side. The one at the back is an old lady who seems to think the cypressus are lovely trees! They pretty much stop any light getting to the garden all year round. We're thinking obtain planning then deal with that problem as they're blocking out light. 

[AliG]

The first people to contact are probably the planning department.

 

There are lots of threads on here re planning, neighbours etc. The normal assumption is that people object to almost everything and talking to them isn't necessarily helpful. As long as you comply with local planning guidelines it shouldn't matter what neighbours say.

 

If you live in a conservation area the trees will have more protection.

 

The only real issue is going to be the neighbour 2's birch. The assumption is that roots normally extend as far as the canopy so you would possibly disturb the roots. You would either need a report on this or perhaps you could show that your build method doesn't disturb roots. As it's only one tree then you might get away with this. But it will be the planning department who decide.

[Invader75]

Ok, to my knowledge, the "Stop Digging" people deal with these kinds of issues so I think it was more to do with a safety issue with the branches hanging over the dwelling. 

[AliG]

You can cut back the branches, if it's a conservation area then you need planning permission, but as long as you don't do any structural damage to the tree you can cut the branches back whenever you like. You just have to offer the cuttings back to the neighbour who owns the tree.

 

There's no safety issue normally, however they get in the way of building work and the leaves will fill up the guttering so it is better to cut them back.

 

Indeed I would recommend cutting them back as long as it won't ruin the look of the trees to stop your neighbours encroaching on your garden. I had to build my house 4m from the boundary due to my neighbour's trees overhanging that far. Like it say it is really annoying, if they didn't have trees there I could build 1m from the boundary and I just have a wasted space there and smaller main garden now. I got permission to cut them all back so that they don't affect my house and don't get in the way of building.

 

 

[Invader75]

With regard to the annoying cypressus trees at the back. Does anyone know of the legalities of them blocking out the sunlight to the garden? They already cause problems with it being in a lot of shade and grass not growing. 

[AliG]

I don't believe you can do anything about trees. Hedges but not trees.

 

Edited: Actually a line of evergreen trees might be considered a hedge.

 

This seems like good advice here.

 

https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?pid=408

 

 

Edited May 3, 2017 by AliG

[Ferdinand]

If it is a normal unprotected tree you can cut it back to the boundary, but that may have implications for neighbour relations. It is always best to talk to neighbours in the *vast* majority of cases; life is too short for disputes.

 

If it is a TPO tree you will need a form of Planning Permission to do work, and a report from a Tree Man to justify it.

 

If it is your tree in a Conservation Area, you do not need Permission to do the work, but you have to inform the Council officially on a form, and wait for a time period, then you can go ahead if they are silent.

 

In your case I would get an opinion from a tree man (who may do a 5 minute look for nothing, or who may charge a nominal fee) on the trees you are concerned about, and see where you need to go from there - if anywhere. Given that you have good relations, then I would consider talking to neighbours or getting a formal report to support a course of action or making an executive pruning decision. It all depends on the specific circumstances.

 

I would do the above before applying for PP or breaking cover with the Council, in case a Tree Officer appears out of a manhole desirous of making an instant TPO.

 

F

 

Edited May 3, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

21 minutes ago, Invader75 said:

With regard to the annoying cypressus trees at the back. Does anyone know of the legalities of them blocking out the sunlight to the garden? They already cause problems with it being in a lot of shade and grass not growing. 

 

Ask that one on the Gardenlaw forum.

 

We need to know how high they are, but exploring reducing them to a reasonable height (maybe 2-4m if they are currently 5-10m) and you offering to organise it and perhaps contribute would be one way.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

If the cypress is, in reality, Leyandii, the Leyland Cypress, and if the group of these trees could, by virtue of their closeness to each other and the way they block light, be described as a "hedge" under the so-called "Leyandii" section of the Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003, then you could possibly take action to get them trimmed.  Left untrimmed they will easily reach 40f to 60ft high, and they grow pretty rapidly (hence the reason for them being marketed as "instant hedging" a few decades ago).

 

It all hinges on whether they are considered to be "stopping reasonable enjoyment of your home", with reasonable being the usual legal test of the "in the view of the man on the Clapham omnibus".  It does cost to get the local authority to investigate, and there's no guarantee that you will succeed in getting them trimmed, it really depends on how much of a problem they are.

 

It's also worth considering the impact of any potential neighbour dispute, as these have to be declared if you sell the house.

[Invader75]

Many thanks guys. What a great forum! Already proving really useful and helpful! ??

[Invader75]

9 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

If the cypress is, in reality, Leyandii, the Leyland Cypress, and if the group of these trees could, by virtue of their closeness to each other and the way they block light, be described as a "hedge" under the so-called "Leyandii" section of the Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003, then you could possibly take action to get them trimmed.  Left untrimmed they will easily reach 40f to 60ft high, and they grow pretty rapidly (hence the reason for them being marketed as "instant hedging" a few decades ago).

 

It all hinges on whether they are considered to be "stopping reasonable enjoyment of your home", with reasonable being the usual legal test of the "in the view of the man on the Clapham omnibus".  It does cost to get the local authority to investigate, and there's no guarantee that you will succeed in getting them trimmed, it really depends on how much of a problem they are.

 

It's also worth considering the impact of any potential neighbour dispute, as these have to be declared if you sell the house.

 

No offence to that neighbour, but she's on her own and on her last legs to put it bluntly. We did ask for her gardener to cut them back a year or so a go but they trimmed a few branches and left it looking worse. They're pretty tall. Taller than a standard 30's semi. 

[Jeremy Harris]

Worth noting that there are quite a few helical pile solutions around, too, and Stop Digging isn't the only company doing this, there are others that have been around for decades, as helical piles are commonly used in civil construction, for things like big road signs etc.  I believe some of the old Victorian seaside piers are built on cast iron helical piles, which gives an idea of how long they've been around.

 

We were going to use helical piles at the first plot we tried to buy, as a solution to avoid a lot of archaeology under the site.  Lots of advantages, including the fact that you can start building the moment all the piles have been inserted, as they are at full bearing capacity from the moment they are driven in.

Edited May 3, 2017 by JSHarris

[Invader75]

Great. Thanks for that. 

[PeterW]

35 minutes ago, Invader75 said:

 

No offence to that neighbour, but she's on her own and on her last legs to put it bluntly. We did ask for her gardener to cut them back a year or so a go but they trimmed a few branches and left it looking worse. They're pretty tall. Taller than a standard 30's semi. 

 

So they do sound like Leylandii - and as @JSHarris states you can ask for them to be removed or shortened. I've taken a lot out recently, to give you an idea I did some work based on a March 2015 tree survey that states 4-5m tall, and in August 2016 I took them out at 7-9m tall...... They will cause issues with normal foundations, the birch I wouldn't worry about as long as it is managed and hasn't got any serious joins or inclusions in the bottom 6m.

 

 

[Ferdinand]

 

2 hours ago, Invader75 said:

No offence to that neighbour, but she's on her own and on her last legs to put it bluntly. We did ask for her gardener to cut them back a year or so a go but they trimmed a few branches and left it looking worse. They're pretty tall. Taller than a standard 30's semi. 

 

In that case I would suggest the key there is finding a way to get what you want which:

 

a - Leaves your neighbour with what she wants.

b - Doesn't involve her in work or organising.

c - Doesn't cost her too much money.

d - Leaves her garden looking acceptable or better.

e - Probably doesn't put her gardener's nose out of joint. (Is he the best one to do the persuasion once you convince him?)

 

You are best placed to decide how to achieve those conditions :-D !

 

(Added: Check carefully before taking the High Hedge Complaint route. Most Councils charge fees of hundreds just for making the application. It may be better to spend that cash on tree work or buttering up your neighbour.)

 

F

[Onoff]

Leyandii - bane of my life. Hate the things. Comprise the bordering hedge with my neighbour and to the South to boot. Horrible shadow casting things!

[Invader75]

Here's the offending tree/hedge.

 

0307 One's causing the issues.

0308 copper beach

0309 birch

 

[Jeremy Harris]

@PeterW will be better at identifying this than me, but that top one looks very much like Leylandii to me.  It looks like some pretty dire trimming has taken place, too.

Edited May 5, 2017 by JSHarris

[PeterW]

Right so that's a nice looking copper beech that needs a bit of a trim (lower two branches would lift the canopy nicely) , a youngish Silver Birch than has some growing to do ....

 

... and the tallest Leylandi hedge I've seen ..!!

 

Whoever pruned those should be ashamed - you cannot prune them like that ..! They are a hedge though as the proximity of the trunks shows they were planted as such. 

 

What would worry me is the root mass - it will be a large intertwined mess that is probably only 12-18" deep but they have over balanced the trees. What is also concerning is they appear to have removed one side which will over balance the whole lot towards the other house - the group of 4 on the right is leaning and one is showing signs of failure now. 

 

Depending on your location, that is probably £7-900 of work to remove those but they need doing before they fall - they can't even be topped as there is noting left below 20ft....

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

My experience of Leylandii is that it never regrows from lower down, either, so that bare patch won't ever have new growth.  We had a neighbour with a problem Leyandii hedge, which we used to cut, and the key was to cut the top back hard, but not be to vigorous with trimming the sides, as it's easy for them to end up bare at the bottom.  This is unlike the big yew hedge we have at the old house, that we cut back really hard a few years ago, as it was far too thick.  It looked a bit sad for a year or so, but now looks very good indeed.

[bassanclan]

In general all evergreen trees/shrubs won't grow back from old wood, the exception being yew as @JSHarris has found.

 

Surely neighbours tree roots growing under your land which prevent building work or cause it to be more expensive should be considered trespass?