Principle Designer

[Zak S]

Hi. I need some help to understand the role of principle designer. My understanding is that they must be appointed and they undertake a role to ensure health and safety aspect of the project. Is that correct. The reason I am asking this is ground working company who I have approached said they only deal with main principle contractor to ensure HS. Now if I am project managing myself the am I the principle contractor and where does the role principle designer fit in there. How can I meet legal duty for health and safety of the site. Any idea about the cost of principle designer. Thanks.

[LA3222]

Don't pay for that shite. Search for CDM regulations on here, it is a topic that has been done to death and is a very grey area. You can ask three people and get three different interpretations. You will find that most on here didn't have a designated principle designor etc. they just cracked on as a self builder and did their best to ensure the site was safe, facilities provided such as a portaloo etc. If you pay someone it will likely become very expensive for little tangible output/effect on your build.

[PeterW]

It’s fairly easy to mitigate. Make the ground worker the principle contractor for that phase, have no one else on site and tell them that (in writing) all site safety is their responsibility during that phase of the project. 

[markc]

Agree with both LA3222 and Peter, it’s a cop out and trying to pass the book.

if multiple trades on site then someone is the coordinator (you), but it’s much easier to keep the heavy risk big items and trades separate and make them responsible for themselves.

H&S is (should be) common sense and easily managed on a small site. If it looks risky, how could it be made safer? … risk assessment.

[saveasteading]

14 minutes ago, markc said:

H&S is (should be) common sense and easily managed on a small site. If it looks risky, how could it be made safer? … risk assessment.

Well put.

 

The Principal Contractor (note spelling) does not exist in this scenario. In any case they would ask the groundworker for their risk assessment which should be site and job specific. You can do the same. It should be easy to follow by all parties, including the site manager of any day. 

 If they can't do that then they are no use to anyone, and will be as bad at supervision, safety and quality as they are at admin and risk assessment.

 

It may be that their insurer demands a principal contractor., and that would say something in itself.

 

HSE are decent folk with a tough job. All they want is safe working. No accidents means no problems for anyone. A risk assessment with method statement is an essential start.

 

[JohnMo]

If you have a smart phone, download CDM regulations App and there is a H&S form to fill in.  Takes 20mins.  You are then the Principal contractor.

[saveasteading]

29 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Takes 20mins.  You are then the Principal contractor.

Quite right. And it is ok to say 'don't know' where contractors are not chosen yet.

Then you will be on their list and they are likely to drive by at some stage, and may call in.

 

The very worst thing you can do if and when they show up is have everyone on site denying they are in charge. The job will be stopped.

There must always be someone in charge...you whenever possible and instruct someone else if you have to go out.

They then have a walk about with you, and if everything is ok then that  is the end.

minor things get a discussion and letter, and everyone is safer.

 

Sites are so much safer than they used to be. HSE don't want to see masses of manuals an paperwork, just a plan that everyone understands, and standards.

Edited January 18, 2022 by saveasteading

[PeterW]

 

2 hours ago, JohnMo said:

If you have a smart phone, download CDM regulations App and there is a H&S form to fill in.  Takes 20mins.  You are then the Principal contractor.

 

HSE do not have a role in self build and you are not required to register for CDM2015 ! And in the event you do, and you have an incident on site even if you are 500 miles away you may find yourself on the end of criminal proceedings that are entirely not your fault. 
 

The majority of Self Build Insurance products do not cover you for being a Principle Contractor under CDM2015 - registering yourself as such would need you to take additional insurance products that you will find eye watering in price. 

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

There must always be someone in charge...you whenever possible and instruct someone else if you have to go out.

That is not correct - there has to be someone  competent in charge and a self build client is not that person unless they are a construction professional and hold the correct qualifications and insurance.
 

Pass the risk to the contractors - they have a duty of care at that point for H&S.  
 

[saveasteading]

PeterW, I'm not sure it is that simple. But the explanation is far from clear.

https://selfbuildportal.org.uk/healthandsafety/

 

read all for context but

 

The self builder acts as their own project manager, employing individual trades at different times.............the self builder will in effect become a contractor. In this case the HSE will expect self builders to demonstrate sufficient health and safety capability to meet the requirements of Part 4 of CDM 2015. Individual contractors will be expected to be able to advise the self builder on any specialist matters within their own work activities. The expectation on a self builder in this position will be on co-ordination and management , not on direct supervision of contractors on site. The self builder is entitled to expect contractors to plan, manage and monitor their own work in compliance with the CDM Regulations.

So in principle the client is the Principal Contractor, and should follow the principle of  putting all contractors in charge of their own works.

 

That is how I read it anyway.

[saveasteading]

I admit I only know big jobs or my own diy. I always tried to keep trades apart however big the job. Groundworkers should not have steelworkers chasing along behind them etc. Steelworkers driving into groundworkers excavations that weren't there earlier, and groundworkers having to worry about stuff falling.

It is very much easier to manage that way and the risks are much reduced. Once indoors the risks are very much lower.

I recommend that to all self-builders.

 

I worked as a specialist subcontractor on a few projects (for national companies) and they were awful: lots of procedures and signatures and stickers, but no real control and not nice sites to be on.

HSE knew that and praised my readable and relevant risk assessments while criticising the main contractors' multiple folders of words.

Paperwork is not the answer in itself. Common sense and thought is, but if you can't write it down, it hasn't been thought through.

[PeterW]

That is an interpretation  - that website has been quoted previously and it’s not entirely accurate. I know from experience of a number of smaller contracts that anyone using the term Principle Contractor needs to understand all the legal implications.
 

I know that on reviewing options on PI Insurance, adding in any type of CDM accountability (designer or contractor) more than tripled the premiums as the insurers see the risk being transferred, and one of the major insurers required that certain key personnel held specific qualifications or had undertake specific training including things such as COTS and WAHR certificates or insurance wouldn’t be offered. None of this is in the realm of a self builder, and it is one of the areas where dragons lie !!

[saveasteading]

2 minutes ago, PeterW said:

that website has been quoted previously and it’s not entirely accurate

It is the HSE explanation specifically for self-builders.

I don't think any HSE inspector would worry especially as long as the site is safe and well managed.

Insurance is another matter.

 

Project ethos : Don't have any accidents.

 

6 minutes ago, PeterW said:

options on PI Insurance, adding in any type of CDM accountability (designer or contractor) more than tripled the premiums

My broker once told me the opposite.....while taking the £15k premium.....that the chances of a successful claim were tiny, and the fee goes to fighting all claims, plus some residual risk....a and a big profit.

Looking at Grenfell as an extreme example, there must be many levels of PI premium all towards the same risk, and it is being spent in court.

 

Most small subbies have rubbish insurance cover (see small ads in the Sun) and it is very important to check it out, as it is often worthless.

I had cladders once and their insurance said they were pipe fitters and  'no works above 3m'. We were at 9m.

'Nobody else has ever questioned it' he said.

[George]

6 hours ago, Zak S said:

Hi. I need some help to understand the role of principle designer. My understanding is that they must be appointed and they undertake a role to ensure health and safety aspect of the project. Is that correct. The reason I am asking this is ground working company who I have approached said they only deal with main principle contractor to ensure HS. Now if I am project managing myself the am I the principle contractor and where does the role principle designer fit in there. How can I meet legal duty for health and safety of the site. Any idea about the cost of principle designer. Thanks.

 

Some good comments here already. I've added a brief 2p worth.

 

As a self-builder you will take on the role as Principal Contractor when you are employing contractors. If there is no Principal Designer, you will also need to fulfil their obligations as well as Client duties.

 

The regulations are well explained in L153 (https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l153.pdf) but not all are entirely relevant to a self-builder. 

 

Do you have any other designers? You should ask them for any residual, non-obvious hazards in their design. For example, the weight of steelwork so the contractor can plan ahead and get a dolly or crane. Or the depth of any excavations and what the likely soil conditions will be. That information needs to be given to the relevant contractors. You need to think about whether any hazardous designs can be changed, or how they may be controlled/managed - however the actual implementation of those controls will remain with the contractor doing the work.

 

As a Principal Contractor, you are responsible for good order of the site, site welfare and co-ordination of contractors. There is a supervisory role but conduct of workers primarily sits with each contractor. Presumably you won't know the detail of contractors activities, so this is where asking for their risk assessments and method statements will come in. If they hand in a pile of rubbish, it is incumbent on you to challenge their procedures and whether they have the necessary skills, knowledge and experience. 

 

A client also has duties, in short they need to enable the project to be completed safely, with adequate time and resources and anyone they appoint is competent. As this is your own home you can stay as a domestic client. It is only when you step into the realm of design and managing contractors where you have to wear the other hats.

 

It may be worth appointing a health and safety adviser for this project to be on hand to review anything you are unfamiliar with. 

 

[Jilly]

I filled out an f10 after the builders who did my superstructure and made sure my insurers knew I am now taking on subbies. Their H & S was shocking, I had nightmares. 

 

I regularly fill out Risk Assessments to make sure there is a paper trail. I updated my First Aid certificate, got plenty of first aid kit and a fire extinguisher and the relevant signage, including a covid policy. You will find compliance is the main issue. I remind them to think of PPE like a condom: it won't work in the cupboard. Makes them laugh and makes the point. 

[Zak S]

Thanks for all extremely helpful comments. I suppose if I can keep the trades separate then do I need to worry about the title of 'Principal Contractor'? My understanding is that I would be acting as one implicity, but for the title of Principal Contractor there might be implications (as noted in the comments above).

 

3 hours ago, George said:

Do you have any other designers?

I have asked for a quote for someone to act as principal designer but they told me for a selfbuild residential ik the absence this role would fall on the architect unless they explicitly refuse this role. My understanding is that if I get someone for this role then it would be easier to manage the responsibilities of the principle contractor (as long as trades are kept separate).

 

3 hours ago, George said:

Presumably you won't know the detail of contractors activities, so this is where asking for their risk assessments and method statements will come in

Yes this makes sense inline with comments from others. Would definitely do this.

 

3 hours ago, George said:

health and safety adviser

I am assuming this would be in the form of a consultation. How best to engage this? Just search locally? Do I still need this I ended up going with Principal Designer (depending on the quote)? What is the likely cost of the HS adviser? What is the output I would find useful from this engagement? Thanks.

[PeterW]

4 hours ago, George said:

As a self-builder you will take on the role as Principal Contractor when you are employing contractors. If there is no Principal Designer, you will also need to fulfil their obligations as well as Client duties.

 

The regulations are well explained in L153 (https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l153.pdf) but not all are entirely relevant to a self-builder. 

sorry but this is wrong. And you need to read and understand the domestic client element of CDM2015 - in fact if you don’t appoint as per regulation 5 then the architect becomes principal designer by default, and each stage contractor becomes principal contractor. It is clearly noted in regulation 7. 
 

Appendix 6 also refers 

 

 

It is also worth noting since it’s inception in 2015, there have been no instances of the HSE prosecuting relating to CDM2015 and self builders failing to notify or act according to the regulations. 

[LA3222]

I'm with @PeterWon this. I'm seeing the same crap that I saw the last time this came up, I would love to see what happens when the self builder doing a single home and managing the subcontracting asks the jobbing brickie for his RAMS before he starts on site. The reality is most trades will get back in their wagon and do one. 

 

Big sites, lots of trades, lot of concurrent activity and deliveries etc  yeah I get it. There needs to be control IOT maintain a safe site.

 

A lone self builder who has a 2 and 1 gang of brickies on site for 12wks. Nope. You leave the brickies to it and just make sure they have what they need in terms of materials and welfare.

 

This is 'self' building, not Estate building.

 

Just read the old threads, this is an exact rehash of old arguments.

Edited January 18, 2022 by LA3222

[George]

Without knowing the scale of the job, it's hard to say for sure what is appropriate. It's not exactly hard to comply with CDM2015 requirements on small jobs.

 

@PeterW - quite right. Big projects still influence my understanding and I was thinking Reg 5(3). (However there's not enough information here and a self-builder could be the designer primarily in charge in the pre-construction phase.)

 

@LA3222 - 'self building' is fine. It's DIY. Employing trades is being a Principal Contractor and the regulations apply in full. It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt.

 

Quote

I am assuming this would be in the form of a consultation. How best to engage this? Just search locally? Do I still need this I ended up going with Principal Designer (depending on the quote)? What is the likely cost of the HS adviser? What is the output I would find useful from this engagement? Thanks.

It really depends on the scale of your job, Basically it'd be to check your fulfilling statutory duties and get another set of eyes to carry out a site audit. 

 

Quote

I have asked for a quote for someone to act as principal designer but they told me for a selfbuild residential ik the absence this role would fall on the architect unless they explicitly refuse this role. My understanding is that if I get someone for this role then it would be easier to manage the responsibilities of the principle contractor (as long as trades are kept separate).

Yes if you had an architect they'd be the PD. But unless you pay them to do it, you're unlikely to see anything from them. As self-builders can be heavily involved in the pre-construction design work, it can make sense for them to be the PD. In a small scale job, the PD could just hand over the pre-construction information (ground info etc), the design itself and a list of non-obvious hazards and pretty much leave it there.

 

 

Another major duty of a PC is to sort out the construction phase plan. This is a good template for a small job https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/cis80.pdf

Edited January 18, 2022 by George

[Zak S]

Thanks all. @PeterW in a situation where a ground workers company (multi national size) insist there should be someone else a principle contractor and not them and only then they would take on the job; is there a way around it? Or must I find a different groundwork company in this instance? They have not yet been asked if they can act as principal contractor for that phase and that no body else would be around.

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Zak S

[Zak S]

9 hours ago, George said:

Without knowing the scale of the job

It is a self managed project to build a house for own use c500-600sqm. Demolish existing banglow and simply build a new one to live in myself hopefully.