Principal Designer role

[Jeremy Harris]

1 minute ago, B52s said:

Sorry JSHarris, I'm still confused.

I am trying to put this into straight forward context (pushing CDM to one side).

So back to my question; Can a homeowner appoint an architect? Yes or No.

 

No.

 

The issue is over the use of the word "appoint".  It has a clear legal definition, but is very often used more loosely to refer to "contract with".  In the case of the contractual relationship between a domestic client and an architect, then the word "appoint" has come to mean "contract with".  However, in terms of CDM, the term "appoint" effectively means "place a responsibility upon, without there necessarily being a consideration exchanged".

 

 

[warby]

On 4/20/2017 at 08:06, JSHarris said:

There is no way that a bit of H&S law can force a domestic client to register as a business, it's clearly nonsense, and apart from anything else would conflict with the way VAT is zero rated to self builders, under the self-build VAT reclaim scheme.

 

Self-builders are not normally businesses, in fact the issue has been discussed many times as to whether there is any merit in becoming a business in order to build your own home, and the answer is that there very definitely isn't; the costs associated with becoming a business, administering it, and then closing it on completion of the build are so high as to make it a pointless exercise.

I strongly disagree; the cost is not "so high as to make it a pointless exercise.".

A self employed person, acting as builder does not need to have an accountant nor do they require any audit charges; a limited company is not required.

They do need to maintain accounts but so does a self builder to recover vat after the build is completed.

There are major advantages of employing a vat registered self employed builder to build a house for a self builder in that the builder can submit very simple vat returns on a monthly or quarterly returns which has significant cashflow assistance and avoids bank interest charges on overdrafts and credit cards. The self builder would not need to complete the ridiculously complicated vat return, and stupid vat recovery rules because all vat would be recovered by the builder who has less onus to prove the vat claimed is justified.

The builder can also recover vat for business petrol and can recover a proportion of their house costs used for a study in their income tax return, a self builder cannot.

The builder invoices the self builder with zero vat; the builder and self employed person need to be different people.

Provided the builder does not make a profit there is no further taxation payments.

Setting up an individual as a self employed person has no setup costs and minimal admin costs; this is what I and millions of others have done.

Closing a self employed person's business costs nothing.

The self employed builder in this scenario will only have to submit one tax return.

A self employed person can close down the business with one letter to HMRC; I know because this is what I did, I was self employed Accountant and Management Consultant.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

But does it make sense for a self builder, with no previous experience of being self employed, to learn how to set up a company, solely to build their own house?

 

As I understand it (feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken) the HMRC VAT reclaim scheme only applies to self builders who are not trading, either as sole traders, a limited company or whatever, for the sole purpose of building a principal private residence.

 

I know the topic has been discussed here, and on Ebuild, before, with the pros and cons of either setting up a business solely to build a home, versus self building as an individual that's not a trading entity, and I seem to recall that the general consensus has always been that the disadvantages of setting up a business in order to build your own home outweighed any advantages.

 

The situation may well be different for someone that's already running their own business, I'm sure.  I was a bit unclear in that I was referring to the case where someone set up a business solely to build their own home and then dissolved it afterwards.  Temp is really the expert on this, as I seem to recall him spelling out some of the pitfalls that you could fall into if setting up a business to just build your own home.  I can't recall the detail now, but I believe there were some concerns over how VAT would be managed, amongst other things.

[B52s]

JSHarris, Re warby's post:

Under CDM; “domestic client” means a client for whom a project is being carried out which is not in the course or furtherance of a business of that client.  Would that not rule out a “domestic client” from being a business entity?

Edited April 21, 2017 by B52s

[warby]

14 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

But does it make sense for a self builder, with no previous experience of being self employed, to learn how to set up a company, solely to build their own house?

 

As I understand it (feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken) the HMRC VAT reclaim scheme only applies to self builders who are not trading, either as sole traders, a limited company or whatever, for the sole purpose of building a principal private residence.

 

I know the topic has been discussed here, and on Ebuild, before, with the pros and cons of either setting up a business solely to build a home, versus self building as an individual that's not a trading entity, and I seem to recall that the general consensus has always been that the disadvantages of setting up a business in order to build your own home outweighed any advantages.

 

The situation may well be different for someone that's already running their own business, I'm sure.  I was a bit unclear in that I was referring to the case where someone set up a business solely to build their own home and then dissolved it afterwards.  Temp is really the expert on this, as I seem to recall him spelling out some of the pitfalls that you could fall into if setting up a business to just build your own home.  I can't recall the detail now, but I believe there were some concerns over how VAT would be managed, amongst other things.

Can I remind you of two points I raised: "the builder and self employed person need to be different people" and "a limited company is not required".

Nobody needs to "to learn how to set up a company". 

A self employed person is not restricted by what you call "the HMRC VAT reclaim scheme" for self builders - so yes I agree with you, you are mistaken.

I do not understand your comment "there were some concerns over how VAT would be managed" and I have completed hundreds of vat returns.

.

[Jeremy Harris]

4 minutes ago, B52s said:

JSHarris, Re warby's post:

Under CDM; “domestic client” means a client for whom a project is being carried out which is not in the course or furtherance of a business of that client.  Would that not rule out a “domestic client” from being a business entity?

 

As far as I can see, a business cannot be a domestic client.  Someone who sets up a business to build themselves their own home has become an entity to whom CDM applies, as has been the case since it was introduced in 1995.  Such a business would automatically have to assume the role of client, in CDM-speak, and could well have other roles too, perhaps principal designer if they designed the house themselves, for example.

 

When the topic of setting up a business solely to build a "principal private residence" has been debated in the past, the general consensus seems to have been that it isn't worth it.  For example, a self builder who is not running a business to build their home, can take advantage of the HMRC VAT reclaim scheme.  I'm not at all sure how someone that's set up a small business that's under the VAT registration threshold, can get the VAT back on all the materials.  When using VAT registered contractors then the situation is similar for both a domestic self builder and a business self builder, in that a VAT registered contractor should zero rate services and goods that are a part of that service, I think.  I know that's how it works for a non-business self builder, but I'm not sure of the system that applies to either a VAT registered or a non-VAT registered business set up to build a single house.

[Jeremy Harris]

27 minutes ago, warby said:

Can I remind you of two points I raised: "the builder and self employed person need to be different people" and "a limited company is not required".

Nobody needs to "to learn how to set up a company". 

A self employed person is not restricted by what you call "the HMRC VAT reclaim scheme" for self builders - so yes I agree with you, you are mistaken.

I do not understand your comment "there were some concerns over how VAT would be managed" and I have completed hundreds of vat returns.

.

 

As I replied earlier, I really don't recall all the ins and outs of the previous debates about setting up a business solely in order to build a principal private residence, so I'm not sure how to answer, and not surprised that I'm mistaken at all!  @Temp knows more about this than I do, by far, and hope he may be able to shed some light on the pros and cons. 

 

@warby, Perhaps you could help us understand why there is an advantage in setting up a business in order to build a "principal private residence", in HMRC speak?  It would help a lot, as I know the topic has been discussed before, and would also guess that very few self builders seem to choose this route.  That may well be "fear of the unknown", in which case your experience could be very helpful.  I know that I wouldn't have a clue as to how to go about setting myself up as a business; it's not something I've ever really thought about, to be honest.

Edited April 21, 2017 by JSHarris

[warby]

"the VAT registration threshold" is irrelevant, you can voluntarily apply to be vat registered, similarly you can choose to account for vat based on invoices received (not necessarily paid) or invoices paid; the former can give a very much better cashflow and is the most common method of recovering input vat for businesses, it can also help self employed people.

 

I have never been a self builder, nor have I been an accountant or auditor of a builder, so my knowledge about this sector is Limited (pun intended). 

 

Any individual, but not the self builder, can set up as a vat registered, self employed person, it is VERY easy. But if they decided after building one property at a loss, there is nothing stopping them closing down that business, no tax should be payable. A person with a personal tax allowance that is not fully offset against income gives further scope, i.e. some one who is normally a non tax payer.  A self employed person can recover more vat (only a minor advantage) than a self builder but more importantly they can recover vat earlier, a significant cashflow improvement and can be recovered in a less onerous way, i.e. A self employed vat return is much easier to complete than the self builder's vat return. I believe a builder has significant advantages over a self builder; this proposal merely levels the playing field slightly.

 

I have previously suggested to Admin that parliament needs lobbying about this unfair treatment of self builders.

[Jeremy Harris]

@warby, thanks very much for this, it's something I'd always just put in the "too difficult" box.

 

So, if a self builder wanted to set up a business just to build themselves a home, can they just set themselves up as a VAT registered sole trader (not sure that's the right term), and then put all the VAT they pay through their own books to reclaim it every month?

 

Assuming that the self builder has no spare personal tax allowance (I'm being selfish here and assuming my own, retired, in receipt of a pension, circumstances) then does it matter if they make zero income from this business they have set up, for the duration of the build?  I know that my mother ran her farm at a loss for several years when she was setting it up, and seem to remember that there was some sort of delay between the year of making a loss and the way tax was accounted for (sorry, I can't remember, or never knew, the details, as it was after I'd left home when she set the pig unit up).

 

The ability to recover VAT early would be a massive benefit.  We were out of pocket to the tune of around £12k for a couple of years, and towards the end that really did impact my progress, as I could only use my pension each month to try and finish the build, as we wanted to try and get as much VAT back as possible (we still ended up "losing" around £500 worth of VAT, on work we had done after we'd reclaimed the VAT, which we paid for from the VAT reclaim money!).

 

[warby]

28 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

So, if a self builder wanted to set up a business just to build themselves a home, can they just set themselves up as a VAT registered sole trader (not sure that's the right term), and then put all the VAT they pay through their own books to reclaim it every month?

 

 

The VAT registered sole trader cannot also be the self builder without a lot of other problems.

 

A VAT registered sole trader must charge vat on invoices to other customers unless it is for a new build which is zero rated. This is why most tradesman are self employed but not vat registered. I was vat registered because I could recover input vat and all of my customers were vat registered and they could recover the output vat I charged them.

 

If you complete monthly vat returns you increase admin time/cost, I would have thought quarterly returns are more sensible on a cost/benefit basis but can be used if cashflow is very restricted.

Similarly accounting for vat on invoices received is called completing the vat return on an 'accruals basis' and will help immensely, i.e. you can get the vat back either after paying the supplier BUT also before you pay the supplier if the invoices are dated (Invoice Tax Point) before the vat return end date; effectively an interest free loan for a short time. I think a self builder can also use this but I am not sure. Efficient businesses wait until the last possible date to complete their vat return to ensure they receive as many supplier's invoices as possible that are dated up to the vat return end date. 

[Jeremy Harris]

Thanks again, and sorry to sound a bit dim, but I'm struggling to get my head around this a bit.

 

So, a self builder cannot be a VAT registered sole trader, which rules out one option.

 

Is there is another mechanism by which a self builder can be a business and so recover the VAT early? 

 

Even recovering VAT every quarter would be a very significant cash flow benefit; for example, many of our VAT reclaim invoices were incurred in the early stages of the build, where we used non-VAT registered businesses to do things like fix the exterior timber cladding, do the first and second fix electrical installation, do the plaster boarding and plastering, lay the stone flooring, doing the painting and decorating etc.  For all these (plus the plumbing, heating and ventilation work I did myself) we had to buy all the materials for the trades involved, so that I could claim the VAT back after completion.  At a guess this was over half the total VAT claim, probably in the first six months of the build.  Being able to get that VAT back early could easily have knocked a year off our build time, which would have also saved is a fair bit in overheads on keeping two houses going at the same time.

 

Sorry for all the questions, but in the past I'd just assumed that becoming a business for the purpose of optimising the VAT position for a self builder was a non-starter, and am now kicking myself a bit for not having looked at it in more depth.

 

 

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

Thanks again, and sorry to sound a bit dim, but I'm struggling to get my head around this a bit.

 

So, a self builder cannot be a VAT registered sole trader, which rules out one option.

 

Is there is another mechanism by which a self builder can be a business and so recover the VAT early? 

 

Even recovering VAT every quarter would be a very significant cash flow benefit; for example, many of our VAT reclaim invoices were incurred in the early stages of the build, where we used non-VAT registered businesses to do things like fix the exterior timber cladding, do the first and second fix electrical installation, do the plaster boarding and plastering, lay the stone flooring, doing the painting and decorating etc.  For all these (plus the plumbing, heating and ventilation work I did myself) we had to buy all the materials for the trades involved, so that I could claim the VAT back after completion.  At a guess this was over half the total VAT claim, probably in the first six months of the build.  Being able to get that VAT back early could easily have knocked a year off our build time, which would have also saved is a fair bit in overheads on keeping two houses going at the same time.

 

Sorry for all the questions, but in the past I'd just assumed that becoming a business for the purpose of optimising the VAT position for a self builder was a non-starter, and am now kicking myself a bit for not having looked at it in more depth.

 

 

 

The issue is one of capital and shareholding. A self builder would have to buy shares in the company to get the capital into the company to purchase the goods. In doing that you then become a shareholder, and the company would own the asset that is now the new house. ... To get the asset out you would need to sell this somehow and welcome to the world of capital gains and corporation tax, along with the spectre of stamp duty ..! Just swapping it for shares is a non starter and I'm no accountant but there is no easy way to get the asset back ...! 

 

The only potential option is to "loan" the company the money and then buy your own house back off the company, at which point it repays the loan but that relies on you having the money to loan in the first place ..!

 

 

 

 

[warby]

3 hours ago, JSHarris said:

Thanks again, and sorry to sound a bit dim, but I'm struggling to get my head around this a bit.

 

So, a self builder cannot be a VAT registered sole trader, which rules out one option.

 

Is there is another mechanism by which a self builder can be a business and so recover the VAT early? 

 

Even recovering VAT every quarter would be a very significant cash flow benefit; for example, many of our VAT reclaim invoices were incurred in the early stages of the build, where we used non-VAT registered businesses to do things like fix the exterior timber cladding, do the first and second fix electrical installation, do the plaster boarding and plastering, lay the stone flooring, doing the painting and decorating etc.  For all these (plus the plumbing, heating and ventilation work I did myself) we had to buy all the materials for the trades involved, so that I could claim the VAT back after completion.  At a guess this was over half the total VAT claim, probably in the first six months of the build.  Being able to get that VAT back early could easily have knocked a year off our build time, which would have also saved is a fair bit in overheads on keeping two houses going at the same time.

 

Sorry for all the questions, but in the past I'd just assumed that becoming a business for the purpose of optimising the VAT position for a self builder was a non-starter, and am now kicking myself a bit for not having looked at it in more depth.

 

 

I am sure there are many ways of cracking the problem, but the scenario I have outlined in cheap, simple and tax efficient.

 

Perhaps if you were called "Trump" you might want to buy a limited company with accumulated tax losses and use them to offset against limited companies with taxable profits. 

[Ferdinand]

 

VAT Registered Sole Trader

 

I have been avoiding this thread for days, because it is the sort of technical debate I enjoy far too much. My week would vanish. However :-), respondng to @warby

 

11 hours ago, warby said:

 

A VAT registered sole trader must charge vat on invoices to other customers unless it is for a new build which is zero rated. This is why most tradesman are self employed but not vat registered. I was vat registered because I could recover input vat and all of my customers were vat registered and they could recover the output vat I charged them.

 

This is why the "customer buys materials" for tradesman practice is very beneficial for both parties sometimes - the customer gets to use their status as a Consumer, and the tradesman gets to keep their turnover down.

 

Limited Companies

 

And commenting further on what @PeterW said about Limited Companies ownership and 'getting money out' etc.

 

10 hours ago, PeterW said:

The issue is one of capital and shareholding. A self builder would have to buy shares in the company to get the capital into the company to purchase the goods. In doing that you then become a shareholder, and the company would own the asset that is now the new house. ... To get the asset out you would need to sell this somehow and welcome to the world of capital gains and corporation tax, along with the spectre of stamp duty ..! Just swapping it for shares is a non starter and I'm no accountant but there is no easy way to get the asset back ...! 

 

The only potential option is to "loan" the company the money and then buy your own house back off the company, at which point it repays the loan but that relies on you having the money to loan in the first place ..!

 

Our specific project that I have alluded to on BH was the obtaining of Planning Permission on a piece of family land in order to increase the value adn sell on to a major or regional developer. We did create a limited company, driven by liability reasons (ie to be able to close the company and not be liable personally years later) and the ability to have more control of when and how tax was paid. We then closed it down as soon as practical.

 

We did take specialist advice from a specialist accountant, and the overwhelming comment was "Keep it Simple" and don't do anything marginal. Setting up any structures and paying accountants to maintain them has the habit of negating many of the benefits through the need to spend time and money maintaining them - unless sums involved are large enough. My rule of thumb is that it will be £1k a year to maintain a limited company, plus time.

 

There are concessions to get money into and out of a limited company - for example you can inject the property into the company as an asset (cannot recall the accounting term - sorry) at X valuation, which allows that same amount of money to be withdrawn later tax free. Or you can make Employers' contribution to a pension, or use Entrepreneurs Allowance to pay a 10% rate of tax. But each of the latter two come with conditions attached - around proving that activity has been done in the Company to justify the payment. And if profit is involved the Company will pay eg Corporation Tax.

 

Given that we have a General Anti Avoidance Rule, this can get complicated and it is possible to get badly bitten in doing marginal practices. So the watchword is take care and take advice and do not be too much of a tall poppy. There are lessons to learn from all those celebs who put huge sums into Film Investment schemes and suddenly find they are sitting on a blowtorch, having created huge tax liabilities for themselves that aiui would not otherwise exist.

 

If you attempt to keep your own property in the Company while living in it, then you are potentially into areas such as taxation on a deemed rent / employee benefit. And you may be into ATED (Annual Tax on Encapsulated Dwellings) which is an annual charge of 0.6% to 1.1% of the value of a dwelling starting at a property value of £500k - which would catch here I expect.

 

There are exceptions such as property owned as rentals in a Company, as long as each is registered every year, and properties not classed as Dwellings (eg Care Homes) but it is not simple. It has the feel - like the inequality point out by @warby above - that it has been mackled together to be kind-of-equal.

 

There are various Allowances and practises related to the creation of a Limited Company which may or may not help. But as ever surely the golden rule is just do not dabble with things until they are fully understood ... just like designing your house and using power tools.

 

Self-Employed Business and Your Own House

 

I am not clear about the points wrt Self-Employment and ownership of assets between the Business run as a self-employed person, and the Individual themselves. eg Does a self-employed business count as a separate Legal Entity, and how does the law applies there - eg does the Individual living in trhe property have to pay tax on the benefit derived from the Self-Employed Business letting them live there?

 

Ferdinand

 

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by Ferdinand

[ToughButterCup]

Right then. Is this just about done wrt H+S or is there more....?

[Jeremy Harris]

13 hours ago, PeterW said:

 

The issue is one of capital and shareholding. A self builder would have to buy shares in the company to get the capital into the company to purchase the goods. In doing that you then become a shareholder, and the company would own the asset that is now the new house. ... To get the asset out you would need to sell this somehow and welcome to the world of capital gains and corporation tax, along with the spectre of stamp duty ..! Just swapping it for shares is a non starter and I'm no accountant but there is no easy way to get the asset back ...! 

 

The only potential option is to "loan" the company the money and then buy your own house back off the company, at which point it repays the loan but that relies on you having the money to loan in the first place ..!

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Peter.

 

So, the problem seems to be that you swap the advantage of being able to get the VAT back earlier for the possible penalty of having to pay capital gains tax and stamp duty.  The latter I can recall being discussed before when this came up.

 

The last option, of lending the business the money initially, then getting the house back as repayment at the end, seems possible.  Most of the cost of our build was met from savings, so I could probably have arranged things this way had I known about it.

 

11 hours ago, warby said:

I am sure there are many ways of cracking the problem, but the scenario I have outlined in cheap, simple and tax efficient.

 

Perhaps if you were called "Trump" you might want to buy a limited company with accumulated tax losses and use them to offset against limited companies with taxable profits.

 

Nice thought, but I'm a little too financially risk averse to try something like this!

 

@Ferdinand Thanks very much for the comprehensive explanation.  I think I may need to read it a few times to get things clear, though!

 

2 hours ago, recoveringacademic said:

Right then. Is this just about done wrt H+S or is there more....?

 

Sorry for dragging things off-topic, but it seemed a very useful thing to explore, as I've not seen such a full and complete breakdown of the pros and cons of creating a business in order to build your own home before.  As mentioned above, it's a topic that has come up from time to time, and has always been dismissed, I believe, hence my comment earlier in this thread where I mentioned that I thought it was too expensive an option.  I was wrong, it may not be too expensive at all, but it does seem to require some detailed knowledge as to how to make such an arrangement tax and duty efficient.

[Ferdinand]

42 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

@Ferdinand Thanks very much for the comprehensive explanation.  I think I may need to read it a few times to get things clear, though!

 

@JSHarris I am just giving a bi of personal experience and pointing out a few more potential quagmires :-) .

[Temp]

 

15 hours ago, PeterW said:

The issue is one of capital and shareholding. A self builder would have to buy shares in the company to get the capital into the company to purchase the goods. In doing that you then become a shareholder, and the company would own the asset that is now the new house. ... To get the asset out you would need to sell this somehow and welcome to the world of capital gains and corporation tax, along with the spectre of stamp duty ..! Just swapping it for shares is a non starter and I'm no accountant but there is no easy way to get the asset back ...! 

 

The only potential option is to "loan" the company the money and then buy your own house back off the company, at which point it repays the loan but that relies on you having the money to loan in the first place ..!

 

Can't the business just provide you with building services? That way the business never needs to own the land/house. 

 

There might be an issue with things like the warranty because I know the NHBC have different policies for self builders and businesses.

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by Temp

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

[...]

Sorry for dragging things off-topic, but it seemed a very useful thing to explore, as I've not seen such a full and complete breakdown of the pros and cons of creating a business in order to build your own home before. 

[...]

 

My motive for drawing attention is entirely selfish. Every time I think I've finished the thread summary, a new cockerel  crows,  the new one wakes the others, and us hens are left in the lurch again.

[Jeremy Harris]

15 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

My motive for drawing attention is entirely selfish. Every time I think I've finished the thread summary, a new cockerel  crows,  the new one wakes the others, and us hens are left in the lurch again.

 

 

It's a good point, though, Ian.  When we started drifting into the (interesting) discussion about creating a business in order to self-build, perhaps one of us (i.e me......) should have suggested breaking the discussion off to a fresh thread, both to keep things tidy and to aid anyone who comes along later trying to find that elusive little gem of information!

 

I think it's reasonable to assume that CDM 2015 is a useful bit of legislation to know about, if only to understand that it will not apply to the majority of self-builders.  It's taken a fair bit of research to reach that conclusion, and personally I'm not best pleased with the way that the Statutory Instrument has been worded, but there seems little we can do to prevent the powers-that-be writing poorly worded legislation. 

 

If you want a real challenge then try interpreting the two sets of parallel legislation that govern the legality of electrically assisted bicycles used on UK public throughfares - that really IS a minefield, as there are two parallel statutes, both of equal legal standing, and both with differing definitions................

[ToughButterCup]

OK, I take the hint. I'll submit my summary to the often disconcertingly incisive scrutiny of SWMBO, make amendments and post it for comment.

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, Temp said:

 

 

Can't the business just provide you with building services? That way the business never needs to own the land/house. 

 

There might be an issue with things like the warranty because I know the NHBC have different policies for self builders and businesses.

 

 

Depends how the business gets its funding - and guess what .... it would most likely be a Principal Contractor..!!

 

And round the loop we go again ..! 

[divorcingjack]

Ok. I thought I'd caught up here, but now the conversation has come around to a difficult conclusion for me. 

 

My architect does does not want to be PD, and to avoid this default responsibility falling on him, I asked someone else to do it. They agreed and we agreed a fee for the work. 

 

So, now apparently, I can't "appoint" them as PD, or I may be laying myself open to trouble. How can I contract with them so I have a PD (not my architect) but have not stepped outside the boundaries for being a domestic client? FFS!!!! 

[Triassic]

My Architect declined to take on the PD role, not covered by their Insurance! So as a private individual I did nothing, just let the architect get on with the design. At various point, my wife and I made comments about the design and these were a incorporated by the achitect. Job done!

Edited April 24, 2017 by Triassic

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, divorcingjack said:

Ok. I thought I'd caught up here, but now the conversation has come around to a difficult conclusion for me. 

 

My architect does does not want to be PD, and to avoid this default responsibility falling on him, I asked someone else to do it. They agreed and we agreed a fee for the work. 

 

So, now apparently, I can't "appoint" them as PD, or I may be laying myself open to trouble. How can I contract with them so I have a PD (not my architect) but have not stepped outside the boundaries for being a domestic client? FFS!!!! 

 

 

The simple answer is to not worry about it, as it isn't your problem, in law.  You're a domestic client, and the fact that your contractors (including your architect) refuse to accept these responsibilities is entirely their problem, not yours.  They haven't got a leg to stand on if they were legally challenged, but you are fine, you just reiterate that you are a domestic client under CDM2015 and do not have the responsibility, or authority, to appoint anyone into any role, you're simply contracting for a service and expect all those you contract with to act professionally and wholly within the law.

Edited April 24, 2017 by JSHarris