Heating Outbuilding - heat pipes or electric panels?

[bikerchris]

Hey all,

 

Hope you're all well.

 

Soooooo, I'd quite like some heat in my new outbuilding, temporarily I'm using an oil filled heater to get me by...it's not a good time to be using this much lecky.

 

I remember when I helped a friend install {evacuated) heat pipes on his roof, and the output the produce, and I'm toying with the idea of doing some research for popping some on the roof (in the right orientation), getting a rad inside and a small pump.

 

I've got no high electric needs, just a computer, lights, etc., which are happily being fed from the house (upgrade is due though).

 

Originally I was going to get an air source heat pump, a builder friend 'knows a guy' that installs them at the weekend and it's £1100 all in...though that would mean I'd have to upgrade the electric supply sooner rather than later.

 

Is this silly? The space is around 3 x 6, so around 18 sq. m. It has 100mm floor and roof insulation (warm deck), and will have 100mm external wall insulation.

 

Look forward to any comments!

[PeterW]

Fit one of these and be done with it - quick and easy, and you could do it yourself for change of £600

 

https://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/p/a1%2fiqool-smart12hp/electriq-a1iqoolsmart12hp-air-conditioner

 

 

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Fit one of these and be done with it - quick and easy, and you could do it yourself for change of £600

 

https://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/p/a1%2fiqool-smart12hp/electriq-a1iqoolsmart12hp-air-conditioner

 

 

That is a second hand unit. I would expect the price to be a lot lower.

[richi]

Cute unit, but how noisy are those all-in-one heat pumps in reality? The page suggests 58 dB(A), which might be irritating in a small space.

[PeterW]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

That is a second hand unit. I would expect the price to be a lot lower.

A1 from Appliances Direct can just mean that they have taken it out of the box to check it as the box is damaged. Either way, it’s for an outbuilding so a minor scratch or dink won’t be that worrying I would expect. 

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, richi said:

Cute unit, but how noisy are those all-in-one heat pumps in reality? The page suggests 58 dB(A), which might be irritating in a small space.

That would be at full wallop   To have air con for summer and heating by air in the winter make this a no brainer. I think I’ll grab two of them now for my sons back bedroom and my shed/office, as in the death of winter it’s Baltic in there and vice versa in the summer. 
DIY in a day off a 13a fused spur, which is a huge attraction. 

[bikerchris]

Wow, thank you all so much for quickly answering, really appreciated! ? Looks like the heat pipe idea, isn't that popular - it was only a thought because of rising heat costs and all that, and because I only use the space during the day mostly. Also, once the insulation is on, the walls should absorb and retain the heat to an extent (thermalites).

 

1 hour ago, richi said:

Sounds like a candidate for an infra-red panel or two. I often heat my 3x3 office with a cheapo 400W job. The idea is to heat you, rather than the space—uses less energy for the same level of comfort.

 

The one I bought in 2017 is no longer available, but this one looks similar: https://amzn.to/3lh1Ptu [SWMBO's dog-rescue charity receives a small kickback from link, at no cost to you—UK reg#1186687]

 

That looks like a good idea, low wattage and fairly cheap to buy, cheers!

 

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

Fit one of these and be done with it - quick and easy, and you could do it yourself for change of £600

 

https://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/p/a1%2fiqool-smart12hp/electriq-a1iqoolsmart12hp-air-conditioner

 

I did look at that site a while back and do a DIY job of it. Like @Richi said though, that's a fair amount of noise - I had originally thought of split unit to get the sound outside...though only if it weren't too loud (high'ish density urban area).

 

18 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

That would be at full wallop   To have air con for summer and heating by air in the winter make this a no brainer.

You're not wrong there, though saying that I did experiment with temperatures in the peak heat we just had. By leaning the insulation against the building AND glazed areas, I saw a 10C difference in temp (30+ outside). I really like the idea of spending no electric on cooling. Like you said though, just a 13A spur and it's done for those extreme days!

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

Fit one of these and be done with it -

That is so interesting.

If it works then it is ideal, 3x efficiency heating and also cools, which may be an issue in a hot hut in the summer.

It is a refurbished model, but I see they have new for £700. I'd like to see some reviews.

 

But also insulate thoroughly.

[SteamyTea]

15 minutes ago, bikerchris said:

1 hour ago, richi said:

The one I bought in 2017 is no longer available, but this one looks similar: https://amzn.to/3lh1Ptu [SWMBO's dog-rescue charity receives a small kickback from link, at no cost to you—UK reg#1186687]

 

That looks like a good idea, low wattage and fairly cheap to buy, cheers

Oh, it works in the far infra red.

At 350 W, 4 old light bulbs would give off more power.

[saveasteading]

53 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

4 old light bulbs would give off more power.

But that isn't the point. 350 watts of radiant heat directed at just you is very warming. Feels like 6 C warmer.

and another pointing down for £120  and you are sorted.?

 

Infrared would have been my suggestion, but that heat exchanger is worth checking out.

[bikerchris]

Just a little update, I asked a plumbing resource this same question, and they said don't bother with the tubes...so lecky it is!

[saveasteading]

We bought one of these for our site office which isn't insulated. works well and has power options.

We also bought the stand but that depends on your space

 

These heaters seem to have nearly all reverted to having a glowing element. I suspect people didn't trust heat that they couldn't see.

This won't be quite as efficient as the 'black' units, as this is issuing light and warming more air.

On the plus side you are less likely to leave it on by mistake,

Wall / Stand Mount Patio Heater 2kW IP24 650 to 2000W  £58

 

[bikerchris]

Thanks for that @saveasteading That's pretty cheap and must work well. It might be a bit too juicy for my liking. Mind you, the current oil filled radiator I'm using for the whole space is using 8KWh at worst - at 23p a unit, that's gonna rack up pretty quick!

[saveasteading]

3 hours ago, bikerchris said:

too juicy for my liking

can run on lower setting. i think 1/3, 2/3, 3/3.

 

There is another kind we have that sits on the floor like an old electric fire, about £25, and again 3 settings. 

[bikerchris]

On 11/10/2021 at 23:45, saveasteading said:

can run on lower setting. i think 1/3, 2/3, 3/3.

 

There is another kind we have that sits on the floor like an old electric fire, about £25, and again 3 settings. 

Sorry for my delay, work, like everyone else! 

 

Well, I did temporarily use a 2K fan heater the other day, when it got quite cold in there. My current bodge is to have 2 oil filled rad's, as I'm getting close to putting the external wall insulation on soon. I have one timed to come on at night, when the temp gets low enough (so far it hasn't turned on), and then another during the day that doesn't use the thermostat on the rad, but instead I've got a plug in thermostat/timer that only works during the day. So far so good, ish. I've plugged both into an energy monitor so I can keep an eye on usage.

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, bikerchris said:

So far so good, ish. I've plugged both into an energy monitor so I can keep an eye on usage.

You can compare the usage between types.

My guess is the fan heater will be the cheaper one to run.

[bikerchris]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

My guess is the fan heater will be the cheaper one to run.

You are right I'm sure. It's just the noise of the thing that's really distracting. I could put it at the other end, but I've not got lecky over there yet.

[markc]

I have a large garage and workshop, no real insulation. I have two oil filled rads (pretty poor in built thermostats) on pretty much all the time except summer.

they don’t cost a lot to run and far cheaper than rust forming on tools etc.

expensive to get a building up to temp but then much less to keep it there.

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, bikerchris said:

It's just the noise of the thing that's really distracting.

Whenever I see a fan heater on offer i.e. around a tenner, I buy it.

I have a couple that are pretty quiet.  But I agree, it is the biggest drawback of them.

I find turning the radio up helps.

The noise does act as a reminder that it is on.  Had one heater that turned the fan off when up to temperature.  Really annoyed me when I went out to work and came back to a very warm house.  Not so bad when I left it on at night as I am on E7.

[bikerchris]

Hi all,

 

Just a little update, my current method is a bit odd - not sure it works.

 

I use a combination of fan heater and oil filled radiator - I let the fan heater blow through the rad, in theory it'll push warm air around a bit quicker. Once the building has some heat stored, I switch off the fan heater and just leave the rad running for peace and quiet!

 

 

On another subject, I've got all the external wall insulation on now, getting some for complete floor coverage this week hopefully (around 20% missing). There is a strip around the perimeter that isn't insulated (around 12cm high), but I've done 40% of that, just need to finish that awkward job.

 

I'd really like to find a cheaper way to heat, but as you've all kindly said, cold days (0-5C) costs around £2 a day. So that perhaps around £400-600 a year, I wonder if I can get a combined solar / battery setup that would be around that? I could then save money by having it on a constant may be.

 

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, bikerchris said:

So that perhaps around £400-600 a year, I wonder if I can get a combined solar / battery setup that would be around that? I could then save money by having it on a constant may be.

Won't an A2AHP he cheaper that 6 solar modules, an inverter/charge controller and battery, and then all the kit to work work it back to a resistance heater.

https://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/p/tf-12000ch/telefunken-tf12000ch-air-conditioner-air-conditioner

 

[bikerchris]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

Won't an A2AHP he cheaper that 6 solar modules, an inverter/charge controller and battery, and then all the kit to work work it back to a resistance heater.

That was the original plan, I know someone that'll do supply and install for £1k all inclusive. But I'm just concerned about noise levels as I live in a high density area (buildings within 10m of my building) and don't want to be yet another selfish resident. ?

 

A friend in construction did say that because of my insulation and build up, it might require very little energy to heat/cool, so that could work in my favour (quieter). He showed me his, but it was a top of his container cabin/office, surrounded by trees and nothing else and it was quiet. But it doesn't compare to my situation where it'll be around 4 ft from the nearest close boarded fence, then it could reflect back against the building.

 

Tricky.

[SteamyTea]

7 hours ago, bikerchris said:

I'm just concerned about noise levels

Nothing compared to the noise our neighbours put up with when you start up your motorbikes (don't ask how I know).

[Onoff]

Got a South facing wall? 

 

http://www.reuk.co.uk/wordpress/solar/make-a-simple-solar-air-heater/

[bikerchris]

 

2 hours ago, Onoff said:

Got a South facing wall? 

 It's south facing during the Summer...house blocks it during the colder part of the year, I had wondered about it though. I'm going to read that article, as I drink plenty of cans (fizzy!). Cheers!

 

Here's a very basic shadow calc - there's one tree in the way that's a neighbours (around 6m tall), but I'm cutting that down for them soon. The building isn't quite that shape, but it's correct enough.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by bikerchris