Boundary Debate...

[Mulberry View]

Here is my Topo, we are the house labelled as '26'. Overlaid in grey is Ordnance Survey. I accept that OS is not dependable, it was overlaid using best effort by our surveyor. It matches up well with various other landmarks.

 

 

Keep in mind that the house we are in previously belonged to my Grandparents, we bought it 18 months ago.

 

You'll notice a slip to the North, but the current debate is with the home-owner of the house labelled '3' to our East. They're a nice couple that we get on well with, we do no intend to change that. They bought their house in the late 80's. Between us is a heavily landscaped boundary that does not have a formal fence. He ran some basic chicken-wire, which he nailed to trees and so on as a means to limit the passage of Deer, which we both struggle greatly with. He tells me that once there stood a beautiful Berberis hedge belonging to my Grandmother, which gradually died over time. In her latter years, she had no interest or ability to rectify the matter, so he infilled with Laurel hedging, which he insists he put on his side. The chicken-wire he added in recent years is patchy and is on our side of the Laurels.

Clearly, the survey shows that there is a distinct difference between where the chicken-wire 'fence' is and where OS think the boundary is, in fact it is as much as 1.6 metres in places.

 

We have a measured plot plan from when the plot that our property stands on was formed in the 1950's. He only appears to have what Land Registry hold and that certainly does not seem to include anything detailed or with any measurements. I have successfully run a string like where I believe the OS suggestion of the boundary is and it looks quite terrifying from his side. It lines up nicely with the edge of his lawn and other paved features, but puts the soil area and most of the foliage, Laurels included, in our property. What is clear from our plot plan is that the boundary on that side is straight, but the current landscape doesn't allow a straight line anywhere without collateral damage to existing plant screening.

We are not hell-bent on throwing the book at him, so to speak, but we are poised to install a fence on this boundary. We both have a fair bit of land, enough to not have to worry about granularity, but surely we have to get this as close to being 'right' as possible and so shouldn't settle for the 'loss' as it is depicted? I'm sure he hasn't set about to deliberately 'land grab', but I think there has been a bit of artistic license.

 

We both agree that seeking a Chartered Surveyors advice will probably be costly, we are not really in what I'd call dispute at the moment.

 

What would you do?

 

 

[joe90]

Despite your plot plan from the 1950,s he may claim usage as the boundary has not been challenged for many years (adverse possession?). I am not an expert on this but would hope you can come to a solution with your neighbours without you both spending £££ on solicitors etc. You still have to live next door to these people and a compromise might be worth the lack of aggro.

[Mulberry View]

13 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Despite your plot plan from the 1950,s he may claim usage as the boundary has not been challenged for many years (adverse possession?). I am not an expert on this but would hope you can come to a solution with your neighbours without you both spending £££ on solicitors etc. You still have to live next door to these people and a compromise might be worth the lack of aggro.

 

It's so hard because there's not a firm fence, complete hedge or any boundary feature than can be relied upon.

 

In fact, the worst possible place to put a fence would be on the 'line' where his chicken wire sits. Much of the landscape screening that we both appreciate would have to go. I'm conscious that, unlike right now, once we put a fence in that's essentially us defining the boundary.

 

I'm hoping to find a compromise with as little destruction as possible. My proposed line is somewhere around 2ft 'West' of the OS line, which is just under halfway between the chicken-wire and the OS suggestion.

[joe90]

18 minutes ago, Mulberry View said:

I'm hoping to find a compromise with as little destruction as possible. My proposed line is somewhere around 2ft 'West' of the OS line, which is just under halfway between the chicken-wire and the OS suggestion.

That sounds like a reasonable compromise on your part, let’s hope your neighbour is as reasonable (but tell your neighbour you will go for the OS line if he does not agree ?).

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, Mulberry View said:

....

What would you do?

...

 

Go to the pub. Talk.

 

Both walk the boundary together, sledge hammer and 2 by 2 stakes. Agree each marker. Hammer each one in while visualising Anti-Vaxers, and every trades person who didn't do what they said they would do.  Hit each one once more thinking about Donald Trump. 

 

Arrive home tired, pissed, happy and giggling. No longer sure what the issue was....

Edited July 30, 2021 by ToughButterCup

[Dave Jones]

get a copy of his deeds and see what boundary detail, if any, is marked on them. £12 from land reg.

[Mulberry View]

12 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

Go to the pub. Talk.

 

Both walk the boundary together, sledge hammer and 2 by 2 stakes. Agree each marker. Hammer each one in while visualising Anti-Vaxers, and every trades person who didn't do what they said they would do.  Hit each one once more thinking about Donald Trump. 

 

Arrive home tired, pissed, happy and giggling. No longer sure what the issue was....

 

Anecdote aside, we've done that and it made it more complicated. Walking the boundary shows just how much stuff is affected. We have a big Yew tree for example, our neighbour has trimmed the low growth on his side to form a hedge. It looks nice and we'd like him to be able to retain it. Moving the fence more than I'm proposing will result in that Yew having to be felled for example.

 

However, it puts a cluster of Laurels that he planted right on the line and facing the chopper.

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, joe90 said:

Despite your plot plan from the 1950,s he may claim usage as the boundary has not been challenged for many years (adverse possession?).

 

 

If the replanting of the dead hedge took place after 2003 then under the new regs no adverse possession can be established until a claim is made. If the OP then disputes a fresh claim notified by the Land Registry then the neighbour will have an uphill struggle to prove his case.

 

If the hedge wandered away from a previous boundary line 12 years prior to 2003 then the neighbour still has an historical right to claim adverse possession under the old rules.

 

I am not clear why the OP feels compelled to instate a new fence.

[Mulberry View]

18 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

get a copy of his deeds and see what boundary detail, if any, is marked on them. £12 from land reg.

 

I've got his Title Register and Plan, if that's what you mean? Cost me £6.

 

It has a simple LR plan with red outline. Doesn't reveal much that we don't know. We have a plot plan with measurements, but he doesn't. It's hard to tell where our plot actually sits without getting much further into it. ?

[Mulberry View]

2 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

If the replanting of the dead hedge took place after 2003 then under the new regs no adverse possession can be established until a claim is made. If the OP then disputes a fresh claim notified by the Land Registry then the neighbour will have an uphill struggle to prove his case.

 

If the hedge wandered away from a previous boundary line 12 years prior to 2003 then the neighbour still has an historical right to claim adverse possession under the old rules.

 

I am not clear why the OP feels compelled to instate a new fence.

 

This is a very long boundary, we share 200 feet with this guy and that's what you see on the above plan. There are various separate plantings along it's line, not one specific hedge and they sit all over the place. He admits that not all of his Laurels were planted together and accepts that they are not all in a straight line.

 

I know I've raised this to sound like a dispute, but we are some way away from falling out over this. He's a bit 'old school' though and can't visualise how a straight fence will work in practical terms.

 

A fence is desired by both of us to limit the passage of Deer that are decimating both of our gardens.

[Mr Punter]

If you stick with wire or chain link you should be able to locate the fence posts so as to avoid any felling.  It would be best if you had a straight line, but I appreciate that is not always practical.  Try to stick to the line that is marked "fence" on the topo.

 

If you want a solid panel fence then some destruction or wobbly boundary will probably happen.

[Dave Jones]

8 minutes ago, Mulberry View said:

 

I've got his Title Register and Plan, if that's what you mean? Cost me £6.

 

It has a simple LR plan with red outline. Doesn't reveal much that we don't know. We have a plot plan with measurements, but he doesn't. It's hard to tell where our plot actually sits without getting much further into it. ?

 

problem you have is scaling from LR plans is next to impossible, so you either mark it where you 'think' it should be and see what they say then be prepared to comprise until you don't want to anymore and fall out. All depends on how reasonable both parties are and who will likely to be selling up first as boundary disputes have to be notified to future purchasers.

[AliG]

 

39 minutes ago, Mulberry View said:

He's a bit 'old school' though and can't visualise how a straight fence will work in practical terms.

Why does the fence have to be straight?

 

Looking at the plan, it suggests that the fence was placed inside the boundary. It is not clear why, but presumably you were OK with this until you checked the deeds.

 

Why not decide which features you want on your side and which on his side and try to weave the fence back and forward it at all possible.

 

You wouldn't really be any worse off if this means he gets a few square metres in some spots.

 

I have a similar situation between my ouse and the houses on two sides. There are so many plants between the houses that it is almost impossible to know where the boundary is exactly. I haven't bothered checking, it doesn't make much difference to me as it is inside an area that isn't made use of anyway.

[Mulberry View]

11 minutes ago, AliG said:

 

Why does the fence have to be straight?

 

Looking at the plan, it suggests that the fence was placed inside the boundary. It is not clear why, but presumably you were OK with this until you checked the deeds.

 

Why not decide which features you want on your side and which on his side and try to weave the fence back and forward it at all possible.

 

You wouldn't really be any worse off if this means he gets a few square metres in some spots.

 

I have a similar situation between my ouse and the houses on two sides. There are so many plants between the houses that it is almost impossible to know where the boundary is exactly. I haven't bothered checking, it doesn't make much difference to me as it is inside an area that isn't made use of anyway.

 

As I said above, the 'fence' is just some chicken wire that the neighbour put in to limit the passage of Deer. He weaved it around stuff and nailed it to whatever he could. It is by no means a reliable fence and hasn't prevented the Deer.

 

We had planned to install a Jacksons Timber Palisade fence to divide the old new plots, adding the piece on that splits us from the neighbour discussed above for continuity. It's lovely fence, but really ought to be straight. I think I'm going to seek the fair compromise I mentioned above and hope that he accepts losing a few plants, just as we have to.

[joe90]

1 hour ago, Mulberry View said:

A fence is desired by both of us to limit the passage of Deer that are decimating both of our gardens.

 

1 hour ago, Mulberry View said:

but we are some way away from falling out over this.

Sounds like a compromise will be fairly easy, walk the boundary with him with a set of sticks putting them in where you agree the fence line should exist (hope it works out ok)

https://www.deerbusters.com/blog/how-high-does-a-deer-fence-need-to-be/        ?

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by joe90

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, Mulberry View said:

Anecdote aside, we've done that and it made it more complicated. ...

 

Not drunk enough ... Time to get really properly bladdered then. Cheaper in the end.

[joe90]

1 hour ago, Mulberry View said:

we've done that and it made it more complicated.

Sorry missed that ?‍♂️ But, if you both want the fence then you will have to reach a compromise.