Garden path lights - rethink

[ash_scotland88]

 

 

I have a couple of musings following on from the above thread, looking to ask those with the better knowledge.

I learned that HUE does what I would like:

On low light levels on sunset
PIR trigger which brings to full light level
PIR at two ends of a path
Can turn off low light level at certain time, if wanted, but PIR will still trigger.

Now my musings:
I could test the theory by running out some extension cables, being zigbee I may be ok with distance by I also believe HUE lamps extend the zigbee area with each one. Even if I do this, find it's ok do you think it's worth while installing a 4core cable to allow live switching if it all goes wrong?

Regulation wise I know exterior lighting, especially on ground, is suggested to have it's own circuit protected by RCB/RCBO. Having looked tonight it appears one lighting circuit is "cupboard under stairs and entrance". The cupboard is kneel to get in and can't be used for anything beyond storage, entrance is one exterior light above door and one flood on front of house. Once CU is upgraded would this be an ok/allowable circuit to use?
It was my original plan to power from the flood but then had in my mind the flood (complete with junction box beside) was linked into an interior lighting circuit.

[TonyT]

Put the exterior lighting in the downstairs socket circuit if you want, for example, find socket on outside wall, remove socket, drill through back of box to the outside.

 

Fit RCD spur in waterproof box or waterproof spur and wire away your garden lights.

 

you could add a WiFi spur after the RCD spur and just control the lights via a phone or something.

[ash_scotland88]

Really? That just doesn't feel right.

[TonyT]

Yes you can spur off a socket circuit to feed anything in this case the fuse limits the draw to 13 amp for this addition.

[ash_scotland88]

Still not done, other mini projects have got in the way etc.
For 50-60m what size cable thickness? If it was temp wise with HO7 I'd went for 2.5mm, but is 1.5mm sufficient here? It's only for 6 lights.

[markc]

As long as they are not halogen floods then 1.5 will be fine and the voltage drop won’t affect LEDs 

[ash_scotland88]

cheers, any reconmendations for a supplier?

 

Planning 4 core as if hue isn't stable enough can chuck in some sort of sensor.

Edited August 12, 2021 by ash_scotland88

[Temp]

Don't just run the wire past where the lights are going to be. It's better to form a loop of wire as it makes ita lot easier to work on later if there are any problems..

 

__0_______0________0______

 

 

[ash_scotland88]

Do you mean run it back like a ring or beyond last fixture?

My plan was like a radial circuit. Last fixture is where the cable ends.

[Temp]

Typically you run SWA cable in the ground and use potting boxes to make waterproof T joints one per light. The wire from the T joint up to the light is typically rubber and sometimes prewired to the light.

 

About the loops..  I mean run the SWA to near where a light is going and make a loop in the ground. Put the T joint in the loop. The loop is just to give you some slack/spare wire in case you need to dig up a joint in the future. 

 

 

[ash_scotland88]

Ah yeah. Had me in a tiny panic that I totally missed something. But yeah, slack for allowing having to move the light (can't think of an example, wall rebuild?) is a given.

[ash_scotland88]

Went to finally order cable (and parts) but thought I would do some reading up first.

Lights will be wired into 6amp RCD.

Looking at ordering 2.5mm (closer to 65m) SWA armour and use the armour as earthing as best practice.

What junction boxes and other components are best? This is where I am a bit of a loss.

[Temp]

Our electrician used something like these to form the T junctions for our mains powered wall lights..

 

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SWJKT1.html

 

Should really get an electrician to install yours as outdoor mains wiring is notifiable under Building Regs.

 

I think you can (must) earth the outer but I think it's recommended to have an earth core as well? I'm not an electrician just an electronics engineer. 

 

Edit: I'm sure they are cheaper elsewhere.

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Temp

[ash_scotland88]

I'm sure this debate was had recently and in Scotland it's different, but could be remembering differently. I know for CU upgrade we're not having to get building regs involved, I can't imagine they'll be that fussy they'll want outdoor lights done.

[TonyT]

Building control are hardly interesting in doing foundations and drainage checks, they aren’t going to be the least bit interested in outdoor lights.

 

if you get them in, all they will want to see is a certificate to pass the blame onto, and then charge you for their 20 second tour of your garden.

[TonyT]

You need cw armour glands

say whiska joint boxes for looping in the SWA and terminating the conductors.

I do like wago connectors inside, makes for quick termination.

Stuffing glands for above joint box to take the light fitting flex.

possibly pirrana. Nuts for the swa glands cause the box is plastic and if you aren’t a spark looping frying pans on the CW gland may be a pain.

 

 

[TonyT]

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/Other/Shark_IPx8.pdf
 

 

or some of these if the joints are buried

[ash_scotland88]

43 minutes ago, TonyT said:

You need cw armour glands

say whiska joint boxes for looping in the SWA and terminating the conductors.

I do like wago connectors inside, makes for quick termination.

Stuffing glands for above joint box to take the light fitting flex.

possibly pirrana. Nuts for the swa glands cause the box is plastic and if you aren’t a spark looping frying pans on the CW gland may be a pain.

 

 

 

I think I need to translate the latter half once the Sunday wine clears....

 

Much appreciate the link. Reluctant to pay a spark when I have the skills but currently lacking the knowledge.

[Nickfromwales]

CW glands = SWA ( steel wire armoured ) exterior type glands. You must use SWA for the backbone of this arrangement.

Wiska is a make of good quality robust junction boxes. 

Wago connectors are modern replacements of choc block ( screw down terminal blocks ) as you aren’t supposed to have them anywhere where access to them is difficult or impossible. Wago’s are considered maintenance free. 
 

Stuffing glands are cable entry glands which you tighten up to make a weathertight ( not waterproof ) seal onto flexible cable. Use SWA to go box to box, then use as short as possible pieces of HO5 flex to go the actual fittings. 
 

Piranha nuts are larger nuts that the ones supplied with the SWA, and have an Allen head grub screw to make off the Earth cable to. That is often easier ( as it is more compact ) to use than ‘frying pans’ aka banjos which also come with the SWA gland pack. They need nuts and bolts through them to clamp onto a lug which is fitted to the Earth wire. Quite a convoluted method vs the piranha nuts. Google these things to see for yourself.   

 

[Onoff]

Pratley?

 

[ash_scotland88]

Cheers @Nickfromwales think it was stuffing gland I havent heard that phrase before and piranha nuts.

 

I think it's just apprehension as I haven't done SWA before. But then 6weeks ago I haven't previously taken apart and reassembled parts of a generator.

[Nickfromwales]

11 hours ago, ash_scotland88 said:

Cheers @Nickfromwales think it was stuffing gland I havent heard that phrase before and piranha nuts.

 

I think it's just apprehension as I haven't done SWA before. But then 6weeks ago I haven't previously taken apart and reassembled parts of a generator.

Ingress of water will be your worst issue, so test everything and then flood the junction boxes with resin to mummify everything for life. 
Smother the exposed outer of the SWA with dense silicone grease or possibly Vaseline before pushing the shrouds on. YouTube videos will give you the remainder of the info you need to get this done. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Nickfromwales

[ash_scotland88]

10 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Ingress of water will be your worst issue, so test everything and then flood the junction boxes with resin to mummify everything for life. 
Smother the exposed outer of the SWA with dense silicone grease or possibly Vaseline before pushing the shrouds on. YouTube videos will give you the remainder of the info you need to get this done. 

Thanks again.

 

Last wee uncertainty. 3core or 4core... Hopefully lights will run off Hue*, but if they can't then some sort of sensor will be installed, so was originally thinking 4core forgetting the armour doubles as earthing.

Knowing the steel gets armoured can I get away with 3core? If so what colour variant, Thinking maybe brown, black grey and can always PVC tape over the "wrong" colours incase need to use a core as a switched live.

*did test the distance but still not 100% confident in their ability.

[Nickfromwales]

Going from 3 core to 4 is pennies. I’d do that just to give you options.

I’d Earth the SWA and use a core for dedicated Earth to fittings. 
I’m a bit OCD so take that with a pinch of salt. 

[ash_scotland88]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

Going from 3 core to 4 is pennies. I’d do that just to give you options.

I’d Earth the SWA and use a core for dedicated Earth to fittings. 
I’m a bit OCD so take that with a pinch of salt. 

Cheers, that solves the inner core colour issue as can only get them one way (to my knowledge)....

Now to decide what lights ?