Yet another "how to lock planning" question

[oldkettle]

2+ years have passed too quickly and the situation is not great to start. So I emailed the planner:

 

>> We are planning to partially demolish the attached garage to create access for the main building works. Can you please confirm whether this will be sufficient to constitute a material start of work to "lock" the existing planning permission? 

 

And got the following reply:

>> In my opinion it would. However, if you plan to rely on this to keep the permission alive – for example, only commencing further works after the expiry of the three years – then you should consider obtaining a lawful development certificate.

 

I have no idea whether he means we might want LDC for the demolition or something else. Before I ask him to clarify - any idea what he means here? I suspect by removing the existing little retaining walls that are both in the way of the future extension and in a way for access further back I'd make sure - but is this correct? Don't want to dig the foundation yet as that'd mean a big and dangerous hole too close to the house.

 

TIA.

[ProDave]

The lawful development thing is usually an acknowledgement that you have done something without PP and got away with it long enough that they can't take any enforcement action.  I don't see how that relates to this.

 

If you have to demolish something before you can commence building then notify them that you have started the demolition and ask for confirmation from them that "the development has started"

 

In our case we had a planning condition that the first thing we must to is create the new access from the highway before we can start building.  I notified the planners when we started to do that and i had an email followed by a letter acknowledging that the development had started.

[oldkettle]

28 minutes ago, ProDave said:

The lawful development thing is usually an acknowledgement that you have done something without PP and got away with it long enough that they can't take any enforcement action.  I don't see how that relates to this.

Well, another case is where we want to build something that is likely legal - but not guaranteed (like our massive 50+m2 outbuilding). But with the extension I really have no idea what he means.

 

28 minutes ago, ProDave said:

If you have to demolish something before you can commence building then notify them that you have started the demolition and ask for confirmation from them that "the development has started"

We don't have to, but it will be useful, in fact, I am sure you recommended me to do just that somewhere when I posted a google earth view of our plot.

In reality, right now the main reason I want this is to gain easy access for a digger and a dumper truck - again, for groundworks for the outbuilding. But I thought I could try to kill two birds with one stone here.

[Temp]

21 hours ago, ProDave said:

The lawful development thing is usually an acknowledgement that you have done something without PP and got away with it long enough that they can't take any enforcement action.  I don't see how that relates to this.

 

 

Its the only way you can get a legally binding decision that you have started from the planners. Any ordinary letters from them aren't legally binding. A wind farm near us built the access gate and some meters of road then applied for a certificate of lawfulness to confirm work on the windfarm had started in order to delay building until the grid could cope. They eventually built the wind farm some years later after planning permission would have expired.

 

Its a judgement call. Do you pay the fee for the certificate or trust that you can prove development was legally started. In the case of a  multi £ million wind farm its a no brainer. 

 

Development is defined under the 1990 Town and Country Planning Act as "the carrying out of building, engineering, mining or other operation in, on, over or under land, or the making of any material change in the use of any building or other land".  Which is a bit vague in my opinion.

 

Its also worth noting that it must be a legal start, so you need to check you have met any planning conditions that require you to do something before development starts. Ditto the CIL exemption. 

 

[oldkettle]

22 hours ago, Temp said:

 

Its the only way you can get a legally binding decision that you have started from the planners. Any ordinary letters from them aren't legally binding. A wind farm near us built the access gate and some meters of road then applied for a certificate of lawfulness to confirm work on the windfarm had started in order to delay building until the grid could cope. They eventually built the wind farm some years later after planning permission would have expired.

 

Its a judgement call. Do you pay the fee for the certificate or trust that you can prove development was legally started. In the case of a  multi £ million wind farm its a no brainer. 

 

Development is defined under the 1990 Town and Country Planning Act as "the carrying out of building, engineering, mining or other operation in, on, over or under land, or the making of any material change in the use of any building or other land".  Which is a bit vague in my opinion.

 

Its also worth noting that it must be a legal start, so you need to check you have met any planning conditions that require you to do something before development starts. Ditto the CIL exemption. 

 

Thanks, CIL is definitely on my mind here. No conditions whatsoever. It is what to write in the LDC application in this specific case that I couldn't figure out. 

 

I also wonder whether we can use a single application for multiple purposes : establish start of extension work and confirm that the outbuilding we are planning is lawful. 

[JFDIY]

In my limited experience, the only firm way is to do something that should be inspected by building control, we've dug foundations for strip footings and another site stripped back for a raft foundation literally two days before the expiration date, didn't get concrete for 18 months on that one. 

 

have also installed a sewer run, widened an access gateway etc. 

 

Without having an inspection carried out what records you've done any work?

 

As above are there any conditions that can be cleared and also constitute a start.

 

[oldkettle]

52 minutes ago, JFDIY said:

In my limited experience, the only firm way is to do something that should be inspected by building control, we've dug foundations for strip footings and another site stripped back for a raft foundation literally two days before the expiration date, didn't get concrete for 18 months on that one. 

 

have also installed a sewer run, widened an access gateway etc. 

 

Without having an inspection carried out what records you've done any work?

 

As above are there any conditions that can be cleared and also constitute a start.

 

As I said above, there are no conditions at all. 

We didn't apply for BC because I don't want to spend several thousand pounds on BC drawings before we decide whether it's going to be an extension or a demolish and rebuild job. I can remove the patio and existing small retaining walls that will be on the way of any future work, this is as close to "scraping the site" as we can get ?

[Mr Punter]

A site near me had 3 no. piles installed to lock in the consent.  Another demolished some buildings.

[SuperJohnG]

I had a letter which was 25 years old which stated 'the development had commenced' that seemed to do the the trick when I bought my plot. I could have continued on no hassles.

 

Added: in order originally for that letter yo have ben written the previous owner agreed with them when would be considered as commencing. In our plot it was planting the trees on the periphery,.making the access and pouring a few linear metres of founds. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by SuperJohnG

[oldkettle]

1 hour ago, SuperJohnG said:

Added: in order originally for that letter yo have ben written the previous owner agreed with them when would be considered as commencing. In our plot it was planting the trees on the periphery,.making the access and pouring a few linear metres of founds. 

 

Am I right that "them" here is the planners? I wonder how this was negotiated... But anyway, it seems we'd have to apply for LDC, will ask him what specific type I will need to create. 

[SuperJohnG]

1 hour ago, oldkettle said:

 

Am I right that "them" here is the planners? I wonder how this was negotiated... But anyway, it seems we'd have to apply for LDC, will ask him what specific type I will need to create. 

Yes planners. 

 

I woukd just call and ask what needs to be di e to consider that the development has commenced. 

 

Planners aren't that scary in my experience. 

[oldkettle]

15 minutes ago, SuperJohnG said:

Yes planners. 

 

I woukd just call and ask what needs to be di e to consider that the development has commenced. 

 

Planners aren't that scary in my experience. 

 

Oh yes, this one has been quite helpful, I called him before and he replied to my emails quite quickly. Will ask him further questions tomorrow. 

[oldkettle]

The resolution for now - following the email exchange. 

1. Notification of the start of work - for the purpose of CIL first of all 

2. Start the demolition 

3. Apply for "proposed use" LDC (quote: "on the basis that the demolition already undertaken constituted a material operation") - if I am not mistaken it's just over £100 and is  certainly worth the peace of mind. 

 

And the outbuilding is definitely a separate application which is OK.