Lincolnshire project - Class Q and VAT query

[gc100]

7 minutes ago, Ali F said:

 

. 

Demolition will be handy if included as we have an asbestos roof that we hope we can replace ...

 

 

You will need to get the asbestos removed anyhow. Expect to pay a ridiculous amount of money for 6 hours work. I was lucky as I found an 'old boy' who did ours for about 1.5K, all the other quotes was 5 to 9K !

 

 

[Ali F]

19 hours ago, Temp said:

 

I think the key here is to try and make it a totally self contained unit that  could be sold off as a separate dwelling in the future. Eg spell that out in the part q paperwork. You don't have to split the title if you dont want to but you should ensure any planning grant doesn't preclude it. 

 

Not only does that make it possible to reclaim the VAT but adds significant value for the future.

Thank you .. very helpful

[Ali F]

19 hours ago, newhome said:

If you can stomach reading this one it is a fairly similar case that went to tribunal with a separate dwelling having been built in the garden for parents. The tribunal judgement seems to hinge on the fact that the planning permission didn’t say ‘annex’ or state that the property could not be sold separately from the main dwelling. If your planning permission states either of those things it’s worth getting it altered. And obviously being Class Q you very definitely must not deconstruct the building whilst it’s being developed (that’s not a VAT issue but a Class Q planning issue). You must maintain the structure throughout. 
 

https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/6851-a-guide-to-the-vat-reclaim-process/?do=findComment&comment=163473

 

 

 

 

I will have a read and share with architect .  thank you

[Ali F]

12 minutes ago, gc100 said:

 

 

You will need to get the asbestos removed anyhow. Expect to pay a ridiculous amount of money for 6 hours work. I was lucky as I found an 'old boy' who did ours for about 1.5K, all the other quotes was 5 to 9K !

 

 

 

Hmmmmmmm  aware it will cost ..  but if I can claim VAT back it helps.  I'd want it done properly though and disposed of legally.

 

 

[IanR]

Reading back to your initial post, it looks like your Class Q application has not been submitted yet.

 

Are you aware that you will likely require a contamination survey? and unfortunately with asbestos present a Phase 1, desktop survey and walk over probably will not be enough.

 

We'd hoped to get away with a Phase 1, but having an unbunded diesel tank close to the site necessitated a Phase 2 with bore holes, soil analysis and gas sampling. All in it was close to £5K.

I believe these came under professional fees, so were not VAT recoverable.

[newhome]

1 hour ago, Ali F said:

 

Hmmmmmmm  aware it will cost ..  but if I can claim VAT back it helps.  I'd want it done properly though and disposed of legally.

 

 

 

For the actual removal you should be charged 5% VAT that you should be able to reclaim at the end of the project. 

[saveasteading]

Check the latest rules always on asbestos.

Assuming you are talking about corrugated asbestos cladding, it is usually a single skin, which is usually the lower risk material. An inner (flatter) secondary skin is usually nastier.

 

If the outer stuff, it still all has to go to licensed tip, using a sealed container. A test would not be expensive.

However , handling it is low risk  and simple, if done properly. 

 

ie dismantled and taken carefully to stack in the skip, any broken bits wetted and double bagged. workers wear paper suits and masks and disposed in the skip daily.  

For that reason the job can be done well, but still not too expensive. It is dismantling, not demolition, but demo people should know.

ie it does not need a very specialist asbestos company with breathing equipment etc ie not a 'licensed operation'.

 

To do a proper job, ask where it goes and that you want a copy of the disposal cert.

 

Also be aware that the neighbours will be watching, and likely to panic. so best explain to them. I found that showing them the HSE document helps credibility.

 

Check I am up to date though, and I think this is the document from HSE     https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/guidance/a14.pdf

 

[Ali F]

35 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Check the latest rules always on asbestos.

Assuming you are talking about corrugated asbestos cladding, it is usually a single skin, which is usually the lower risk material. An inner (flatter) secondary skin is usually nastier.

 

If the outer stuff, it still all has to go to licensed tip, using a sealed container. A test would not be expensive.

However , handling it is low risk  and simple, if done properly. 

 

ie dismantled and taken carefully to stack in the skip, any broken bits wetted and double bagged. workers wear paper suits and masks and disposed in the skip daily.  

For that reason the job can be done well, but still not too expensive. It is dismantling, not demolition, but demo people should know.

ie it does not need a very specialist asbestos company with breathing equipment etc ie not a 'licensed operation'.

 

To do a proper job, ask where it goes and that you want a copy of the disposal cert.

 

Also be aware that the neighbours will be watching, and likely to panic. so best explain to them. I found that showing them the HSE document helps credibility.

 

Check I am up to date though, and I think this is the document from HSE     https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/guidance/a14.pdf

 

 

Thats great thank you.  I'll look into this ..  we are waiting for the structural engineer appointment so maybe he will advise or request the test. 

[Ali F]

1 hour ago, IanR said:

Reading back to your initial post, it looks like your Class Q application has not been submitted yet.

 

Are you aware that you will likely require a contamination survey? and unfortunately with asbestos present a Phase 1, desktop survey and walk over probably will not be enough.

 

We'd hoped to get away with a Phase 1, but having an unbunded diesel tank close to the site necessitated a Phase 2 with bore holes, soil analysis and gas sampling. All in it was close to £5K.

I believe these came under professional fees, so were not VAT recoverable.

No not submitted as yet we are awaiting structural engineer and flood risk survey  appointments to be made - I'll ask if contamination survey will be done as I thought this came under structural engineer    ? 

 

[Ali F]

46 minutes ago, newhome said:

 

For the actual removal you should be charged 5% VAT that you should be able to reclaim at the end of the project. 

 

ok thanks

 

[IanR]

1 minute ago, Ali F said:

No not submitted as yet we are awaiting structural engineer and flood risk survey  appointments to be made - I'll ask if contamination survey will be done as I thought this came under structural engineer    ? 

 

 

The Structural Engineer will be interested in the Soil Survey, and the Bore Hole work can derive the ground bearing capacity which the Structural Engineer will likely also want, but the whole of the Phase 2 would normally be done by a separate company and will likely be a condition of your Planning.

If you plan it well you can avoid a double-count in the tests and make sure the Environmental tests cover what is required by the SE as well as the Contamination report.

 

[Ali F]

2 minutes ago, IanR said:

 

The Structural Engineer will be interested in the Soil Survey, and the Bore Hole work can derive the ground bearing capacity which the Structural Engineer will likely also want, but the whole of the Phase 2 would normally be done by a separate company and will likely be a condition of your Planning.

If you plan it well you can avoid a double-count in the tests and make sure the Environmental tests cover what is required by the SE as well as the Contamination report.

 

Very helpful information, thank you. 

[kxi]

For the Class Q approval I don't recall being required to have a contamination report, and checking now I see the planning consultant addressed this like this:

 

In the planning officer's report they said:

"The council's environmental health officers have been consulted and raise no objection. From the planning history there appears to be no historic uses which may give rise to concern'"

 

I suspect a high % of class Q barns involve an asbestos fibre cement roof. Ours had a 385m2 1960s asbestos roof that was removed by a demolition contractor experienced with this, but not a specialist asbestos remover.

 

If you don't know the full history of the property you may want a contamination survey done for your own sake in any case.

 

 

[IanR]

Our LPA takes a very different view on all change of use from non-resi to resi. It requires the Phase 1 to get the history, and a walk-over to determine if there are any potential risks. If any risks are found then a Phase 2 is required.

I assumed this was the norm, as every Class MB/Q and "normal" Barn conversions I researched had the same conditions attached.

[gc100]

I had to get a contamination Phase 1 and then a phase 2 as the site is ex RAF (also an unexploded ordinance survey as well  ).

 

The contamination surveys are money for old rope - most of my Phase 2 quotes came in around 3.5 to 5K. In the end I found a chap who did it for £750. As always pays to shop about.

 

[Furnace]

On 05/05/2021 at 17:18, IanR said:

We'd hoped to get away with a Phase 1, but having an unbunded diesel tank close to the site necessitated a Phase 2 with bore holes, soil analysis and gas sampling. All in it was close to £5K.

@IanR
Did your Phase 2 discover any unexpected issues? Mine (£7k) has just come back with asbestos (expected - it's on the site of an asbestos roofed barn) but also uncovered one borehole with Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. The report recommends lots of follow-on work such as having a Discovery Team on site during groundworks; a verification report detailing any remediation work; a pre-Demolition asbestos survey; further soil analysis over the entire site or 300mm of fresh topsoil imported and laid over a hi-vis geotextile layer and validated by an Environmental Consultant. etc. etc. etc.

It feels like jobs for the boys and very self-serving.

[IanR]

1 hour ago, Furnace said:

Did your Phase 2 discover any unexpected issues? 

 

No, thankfully mine stopped at the Phase 2 when nothing else was found.

 

1 hour ago, Furnace said:

The report recommends lots of follow-on work such as having a Discovery Team on site during groundworks; a verification report detailing any remediation work; a pre-Demolition asbestos survey; further soil analysis over the entire site or 300mm of fresh topsoil imported and laid over a hi-vis geotextile layer and validated by an Environmental Consultant.

 

They do appear to be pushing for a few conditions on your planning approval that requires them to book some labour hours and lab time at your site. You should try and take control of the outcome and when you submit the report also provide you own summary of the pro-active actions you intend to take. Have you got a Statement of Work from an Asbestos removal company for your site, I'd repeat that verbatim so it's clear you are taking it seriously, and then suggest the ground works team will be tasked with visually checking for and reporting any further unearthed contamination, for which you will bring in the necessary Geo-tech team to analyse and identify the contamination plus recommend remedial work. My report did include a couple of pages of "recommendations" that was just general advice to the builders etc. If you have similar I'd be rewording that and saying how your going to do it all, with bells on, in the hope you don't get a condition requiring further ongoing assessment.

[Furnace]

@IanR Thanks for that. We'll try to include a "this is how we're going to deal with the issues raised" section when we submit. Wish me luck.
Mark