Chicken & egg rant

[MrsB]

I feel very frustrated with it all today. Barn conversions are not easy, massive understatement! I might just put a caravan on the plot and save myself the hassle. 

 

Im trying to spend as little money up front as possible, I've had my offer accepted on the land with a barn with PP,  the only bill I'm racking up at this moment in time is the solicitor.

 

I understand no builder wants to be out of pocket but I'm wondering how can I progress from here.

 

To get a quote I need a plan, to get a plan I need architect to draw up the plan to my specs, to get him to do this I need a structural engineer to check the derilict barns foundations, walls etc. are sound enough. 

 

The original plans were obtained for the guy who I'm buying the land off, I'm guessing just a basic design to get it passed. But I'd like some alterations, en suite in master bedroom plus an extension which is still within the footprint and a window in the lounge to enable me to see my land not just a courtyard. 

 

Ive been told by my architect to expect £1,000 which has now jumped to £1,500 per sq meter plus services (electricity, water bio mass treatment unit),  and then buy the kitchen & bathroom fittings plus landscaping etc. 

 

My architect suggests I pay £200 to the builders merchants to give me an estimate for all this extra work.

 

Anyone who would like to help me make sense of all this please feel free, so sorry to rant on when you maybe all think this is the easy stage. 

 

Julie 

[Jeremy Harris]

Any chance that the guy you're buying from will let you have the plans and surveys?  There are copyright issues here, that would need to be resolved between you and whoever did the surveys and drew the plans, but it may well be that these can be resolved for less money up front that repeating the process with another SE/architect.

 

I think it would be unusual for a barn conversion to have not had a survey as a part of drawing up the plans for PP, if only because few architects, or architectural technicians, would take on such a task without having accurate dimensions and a feel for the feasibility of the conversion.

 

If the seller won't oblige, then can you find who drew the plans up, from the planning file, and approach them directly?  We did this at first, even though we wanted to build a completely different design of house to the one on the approved plans for the plot.  We contacted the architectural technician who had both drawn up the plans and dealt as the agent for the owner when getting PP, and he was very helpful.  We'd have used him, rather than me taking the DIY route and designing the house myself, had he not retired in between us making an offer and completing the purchase!

Edited February 14, 2017 by JSHarris
typo, "fro" when I meant "for".................

[Ferdinand]

There may be some useful background and guidance here:

 

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/?s=barn+conversion

[MrsB]

@JSHarris thank you for listening. By the way, I've listened and enjoyed both of your podcasts this last few days, maybe I should put them on again now  .... chill! 

 

I have printed off the original plan from the local councils website, I best contact the seller and see if I am able to use them for now, not wishing to breach the copyright laws.

 

I did speak to the architect the other day he is aware I have them. He's given me a quote to make my alterations and planning regs.

 

A visual survey was done 2 years ago but the barn had become a dumping ground therefore the report was only done on areas he could see, which is reasonable. No doubt in the last 2 years it has detoriated more. 

 

 

[Triassic]

If it were me, I start by meeting up with the architect, you can't do anything without plans and it's sounds like the majority of the original plans meet your needs and only need tweaking with your additional requirements.

 

The architect should be able to advise what additional proffesional input, Structural Engineers etc, will be required.

 

Once you have the revised plans you could send them to one of the on line quantity surveyors, they will provide a detailed breakdown of what is required to complete the build. The one I used, based just outside Manchester, charged £120.  The end cost will depend on how much you're willing to do yourself.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Triassic

[Redoctober]

3 hours ago, MrsB said:

I'm trying to spend as little money up front as possible, I've had my offer accepted on the land with a barn with PP,  the only bill I'm racking up at this moment in time is the solicitor.

To get a quote I need a plan, to get a plan I need architect to draw up the plan to my specs, to get him to do this I need a structural engineer to check the derilict barns foundations, walls etc. are sound enough. 

Julie 

 

Hi @MrsB yes it can be frustrating but you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs!! We have spent north of £3k - not including the land obviously - and are no way near to digging the ground as yet. On the plus side, we have full planning permission, the Solicitor has been paid and we are confident and comfortable with our budget for when the time comes. Sadly, at some point you are going to have to break those eggs!!

PW.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Redoctober
Typo - Tiem for time

[ToughButterCup]

3 hours ago, MrsB said:

I feel very frustrated with it all today. Barn conversions are not easy, massive understatement! I might just put a caravan on the plot and save myself the hassle. 

[...]

Anyone who would like to help me make sense of all this please feel free, so sorry to rant on when you maybe all think this is the easy stage. 

 

This is all far from easy. Preparatory work  is  almost never wasted.

Some basic considerations (forgive me if I write  about an issue that has already been covered)

• What's the end-in-mind?
• How will that be financed?
• How soon do you want the work done?
• How much time do you have to run the project?
• How much and what type of support do you have in place? 

I am always amazed by the level of commitment and energy shown by BH members - many of whom do a full time job.

There is a core of  BH folk who are old codgers like me: retired, recalcitrant, pig headed, determined.  We have time. We are probably not too fussed about schedules, and likely can finance our way by selling our current house. Some are more fortunate than that. And we are unlikely to be building to sell and move on.

 

Many combine standard 'normal' family life with self-building. Energy levels off the scale, fantastic personal organisation, significant technical understanding and experience, and a network of mates 'who-know-how-to' [...], loads of grit and determination. How they do it, I honestly don't know. Some do it serially.

 

Guessing between the lines (let alone reading between them) it might help at this stage to write a simple cash flow forecast, set a budget, ask for fee proposals (for example some or all of these: SE, architect, architectural technician, solicitor, building planner, soil survey, topographical survey, ecology survey) and then take some decisions. At this stage forget the Builders' Merchants: too early.

There is much to be gained by networking both on and offline.

 

Read the PP with very great care. How with the foul drainage be sorted out? No off mains drainage no house. How long has the barn been on the market? Why?

 

Ian

 

[Mrs H]

I work across a few local authority (LA) areas (as an architect) building stuff. One LA has a Community Infrastructure Levy (CIL), other LAs do not. This is a tax on new homes which developers pay to the local council. As a self builder you can get exemption. One of my self builds is affected and there's quite a few bits of paperwork to get right or it will cost £1000s. It's vital to find out if a CIL applies as you have to do all the paperwork to gain exemption BEFORE starting any building work. 

[IanR]

8 hours ago, MrsB said:

Im trying to spend as little money up front as possible, I've had my offer accepted on the land with a barn with PP,  the only bill I'm racking up at this moment in time is the solicitor.

 

A builder with experience in converting something similar will get you to the quickest, cheapest, ball-park estimate. If it's a conventional Barn conversion I would have thought it would be possible to find another locally that has just been finished (possibly up for sale), or in progress, find the builder and invite them to come and look at your barn to give advice and outline costs with a view to quoting on the conversion once a full drawing pack is available.

 

It will only be a budgetary figure, but to get anything more accurate will require significantly more work and investment.

 

One thing to bare in mind is that a conversion will very likely be more expensive than a new build. They are, typically, less efficient with floor space, assuming there is a some original structure that the LPA wishes to be preserved and identifiable in the converted building which often leads to double-volume spaces with vaulted ceilings. This has to lead to higher £ / m2 figures. I'd be going with that higher figure from the architect, plus a bit more,

[ToughButterCup]

6 hours ago, IanR said:

[...]

One thing to bare in mind is that a conversion will very likely be more expensive than a new build. They are, typically, less efficient with floor space, assuming there is a some original structure that the LPA wishes to be preserved and identifiable in the converted building which often leads to double-volume spaces with vaulted ceilings. This has to lead to higher £ / m2 figures. I'd be going with that higher figure from the architect, plus a bit more,

 

Exactly right. Get your spreadsheet out. Network.