Caravan act Build - Technical source?

[ProDave]

9 minutes ago, Crofter said:

Interestingly, the building can still qualify even if there is in practise no way of moving it. The test case for this was where somebody's portable building had been, over the years, encroached upon by other building work to the point where you could now no longer get a crane in and remove it from the site. In that case it was ruled that the characteristic of portability was inherent to the building rather than being a combination of the building and its surroundings, so just because other factors prevented access did not mean that the building lost its claim to be portable.

And of course you could hire a Chinook if you really wanted to make the point...

I wired one like that.  It was on a static caravan site, but in the middle surrounded by other vans with only pedestrian access.  They had to cut up and remove the old 'van and then the new one was built in situ.  No way it could ever be moved without moving a lot of other 'vans first. 

 

Onto a different subject of reclaiming VAT.  If you built a "caravan" as a permanent dwelling and got it assessed for council tax, the VAT reclaim will allow you to use the valuation certificate as "proof of completion"  Has anyone tried that?

[Temp]

8 hours ago, ProDave said:

Onto a different subject of reclaiming VAT.  If you built a "caravan" as a permanent dwelling and got it assessed for council tax, the VAT reclaim will allow you to use the valuation certificate as "proof of completion"  Has anyone tried that?

 

Interesting question.

 

Caravans are on the list of things a self builder can't claim for but presumable because they are thinking of builders vans or because they aren't normally "incorporated into a dwelling". 

 

Under C here..

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/goods-and-services-you-can-claim-for-under-the-vat-diy-scheme

 

I also found this on the VAT treatment of a Caravan..  

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-treatment-of-caravans-and-houseboats-notice-70120

 

Quote

A caravan is a structure that:
snip
A structure that fails to meet the conditions may constitute a building for planning purposes, in which case, the first sale or long lease of it may qualify for the zero rate of VAT under the conditions described in Notice 708: buildings and construction.

 

So my guess is their instinct would be to refuse a claim under the Self Build Reclaim Scheme if it is a caravan.

 

So what might happen if you too it to a tribunal?  Well in general the self build reclaim scheme attempts to put us in the same position as a VAT registered builder. A Vat Registered Builder of Caravans can zero rate a caravan provided it meets certain rules such as..

 

Quote

The supply will be:
* standard-rated if it does not exceed either 7 metres in length or 2.55 metres in width
* reduced-rated if it exceeds either 7 metres in length or 2.55 metres in width and it’s not manufactured to BS3632:2005
* zero-rated if it was sold on or after 6 April 2013 and it exceeds either 7 metres in length or 2.55 metres in width and it’s manufactured to BS3632:2005

 

I would hope tribunal would see it as unfair self builders cannot reclaim the VAT but who knows.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Temp

[ProDave]

Yes but if you get PP for a single storey timber clad dwelling that just happens to be within the legal dimensions of a caravan and you then built it by agreeing with building control that it was a caravan and so exempt from BR.  Then you submit a VAT claim using the council tax valuation as proof of completion.  Will hmrc come back and ask you "is it a caravan" or will they just process the claim?

[Temp]

I thought i'd see if HMRC considered a caravan could be a Principle Private Residence for CGT relief but it seems the answer is unclear..

 

https://www.charteredaccountants.ie/taxsource/1997/en/act/pub/0039/cl/sec0604-1-cl.html

 

A caravan with all the normal services

was a principal private residence in Makins v Elson 1977 STC 46. However, in Moore v Thompson 1986 STC 170 a caravan was not a dwelling capable of being regarded as a principal private residence."

 

If its not a PPR then what about the CIL...  I haven't looked at the exact wording of the legislation but found..

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/community-infrastructure-levy#para082

 

 Individuals benefiting from the exemption must own the property and occupy it as their principal residence for a minimum of 3 years after the work is completed

 

Lots of unanswered questions im afraid.

 

 

 

[iSelfBuild]

Caravans are 0% vat rated if BS3632. Just finalised my method statements for round log cabins which are approved by LABSS as BS3632 caravans. Size has increased in Scotland to match England last year. Become quite an expert on this over the last 12 months. Next thing I'm figuring out is how to claim capital allowances as they are classed as plant and machinery. New investment allowances will help things tax wise too as I'm renting my show home out.

[SteamyTea]

On 08/12/2020 at 09:05, Crofter said:

The test case for this was where somebody's portable building had been, over the years, encroached upon by other building work to the point where you could now no longer get a crane in and remove it from the site

Second Law of Thermodynamics says the same thing.

 

[fiaraziqbal]

On 01/12/2020 at 21:14, Galileo said:

Not sure which category this goes in, design and planning or construction, hope i got right. I've a notion of building to caravan act standards, mostly because I'm poor(!) and it looks like I would have more of a free hand with the layout and materials. So I'm basically looking at building a very well insulated wooden box on a skid base, in two halfs, on some peaty ground.

 

There is a lot of really good high level information in the forums, and I've been a member for quite awhile and soaked in a lot of just by searching, but one part that eludes me is the technical how. What I mean by that is I have the idea of how to do what I want, but no idea on what to specify for framing the base, ridge beam sizing etc. Are there any recommendations of places to look for people that have already done this, or perhaps publications that will guide me, would any of the TRADA publications cover such a thing as building a "static caravan"? 

 

I'm not a stranger to building, plumbing and electrical work, having tried my hand at most things with success, except plastering, but it's all been small scale like a workshop, sheds, house renovation etc. I'm looking to build in a coastal location, with a lot of wet and a LOT of gale force winds, so I really don't want to cut corners or screw up on the structure specifications, as I'm keen on not waking up floating in the Atlantic for want of a cunningly placed Simpson Strong-tie. If the simple answer is employ a structural engineer, all good but any advice gratefully received.

You are in the boat in which i first sailed. ... and still am.  My back ground is teahcing and engineering but nothing todo with buildings per se.  As yourself i have carried out most of my own work (including plastering). One of my favourite finds was the https://www.gov.uk/guidance/building-regulations-and-approved-documents-index it covers all the technical aspects fo everything! its a bit of a read but i am on teh isle of lewis and just about to start to build a mobile home.

[Galileo]

I'm in Shetland, so we get the odd fair breeze as you do on* the Isle of Lewis. I have still not decided what to do, the classic route and learning a lot of building regulation duckwittery, having inspections, getting that one inspector who takes a picture of a non-compliance and waits until the build is finished before going "ah-ha!" 

 

On 30/03/2021 at 18:11, iSelfBuild said:

Caravans are 0% vat rated if BS3632. Just finalised my method statements for round log cabins which are approved by LABSS as BS3632 caravans. Size has increased in Scotland to match England last year. Become quite an expert on this over the last 12 months. Next thing I'm figuring out is how to claim capital allowances as they are classed as plant and machinery. New investment allowances will help things tax wise too as I'm renting my show home out.

 

I've discovered the same thing, as long as complying with that standard it's zero VAT. I see that there are some now making kits that have all the structural calculations and documentation ready done to convince building control that it can be lifted as a 'caravan' and it's not a sly house, I found https://urbanmarque.com/ the other day and asked about pricing, which came back as okay. The problem for me will be the cost of it all being delivered up to Aberdeen and shipped the two ferry journeys to get to my island. I'd love to do a Segal style build along the lines of that Irish Vernacular house, but then I'd still need to get all the building control stuff sorted out. Sometimes I wish I had invested more wisely when younger instead of enjoying myself and then I would not be "poverty" building!

 

*Is it on or in for where you are? Never, ever, unless deliberately provoking a local, say on the Shetlands! Always in, and just Shetland, though you can add on Isles...

[ProDave]

What do others say about building control on Shetland?  I can't imagine there are many BC inspectors so anyone care to mention of they are okay, or jobsworths?

 

Re the VAT reclaim  One of the documents you can use for "proof of completion" is a council Tax valuation notice.  You will still get that if you build it as a "caravan" so I see no reason why you could not try a VAT reclaim using that?

[scottishjohn]

Is there a limit to how many you would get planning for under the act

Is it  worded  such that  is for one unit  only per site ?

and can you use it as permanent dwelling ?

[ProDave]

Permanent dwelling or holiday home is a planning matter.  A lot of caravan sites have planning that only allows say 10 months of the year.

 

How many units is again planning, though I believe a croft for instance can have 3 "caravans" under permitted development.

 

It is perfectly possible to make a modern, warm, energy eficcient house as a "caravan" and live in it permanently if you can accept the caravan size limits which is a little over 100 square metres and of course single storey.

 

I have worked on several such modular homes.

[Galileo]

On 19/04/2021 at 18:55, ProDave said:

What do others say about building control on Shetland?  I can't imagine there are many BC inspectors so anyone care to mention of they are okay, or jobsworths?

 

Re the VAT reclaim  One of the documents you can use for "proof of completion" is a council Tax valuation notice.  You will still get that if you build it as a "caravan" so I see no reason why you could not try a VAT reclaim using that?

 

Well, funny you should say that, the "gotcha photo" story was told to me by my neighbour about the council BC up here, of course it could be a handed down tale!

 

That caravan kit lot don't charge you VAT, as they say they don't need to. Their 101m2 3 bed kit is £28k delivered and gives you a shell, but you still need to clad, insulate, board out, plumb and fit all the electrics so that's a lot VAT back to reclaim on what is probably another £25k plus.