Advice on the process or getting dry rot repaired

[Stephen cooper]

Sorry but i couldn't find a suitable group to put this in.

I'm in need of some advise please on the process, as a home owner, to get a rather fundamental repair done to my home.

I'm a first time home owner, never before had to have work done to a property I've been in and I'm quite lost in what i need to do to actually get this fixed.

I own a house built in 1890, its roof is all hand cut beams and it looks amazing (the engineering gone into it is borderline art in my opinion) but Iv'e found a large section of dry rot on the end of one of the purlins. 

I contacted a local roofer who advised me to contact a structural engineer. I'm going to do that this Monday but even then not too sure what the next step would be?

I assume they would inspect the roof and give me some form of report of the integrity of it and recommend repairs?

 

Would they then also carry of the required work to repair it?

Would i need to contact a roofer or joiner or builder or (i have no idea as im sure you can guess) and forward on the work that needs doing?

Would this be something that goes through insurance?

 

My other concern is this repair would essentially chop out a 130 year old piece of unique history and replace it with a perfectly square machine sawn piece of timber that would ruin the look of the structure. I have grand plans to remove the ceiling and expose all this fantastic joinery. Probably never happen but i like that its up there and this could be an option!

Anyway any advise on what exactly i would do to get this repaired would be great. Not specifically the process as a tradesperson, but as a home owner.

Thanks!

[Gone West]

16 hours ago, Stephen cooper said:

I own a house built in 1890, its roof is all hand cut beams and it looks amazing (the engineering gone into it is borderline art in my opinion) but Iv'e found a large section of dry rot on the end of one of the purlins. 

Are you sure it is dry rot. Is the roof not well ventilated because dry rot is a fungus and requires a certain level of moisture to grow. I've seen it under poorly ventilated floors even growing along brickwork.

[joe90]

Frankly whatever it is stick a screwdriver in it and see if the wood is solid or soft, do this all over and you will see how much it’s been compromised, if at all, then get a reputable local builder/roofer (someone who has a good reputation locally, Facebook might be a good source) to give an opinion on what’s required.

Edited October 25, 2020 by joe90

[Stephen cooper]

Thanks for the responses. Got the screw driver out and gave the area a sharp prod. 

Also took some pictures, really should have just done that in the first place. Pictures one, two and three are taken from the bottom of the beam, to get that angle I'm pretty much under it having to look directly up with the phone above my head. Picture number four is taken from the top of the beam. 

There are two sections of what i assume is dry rot, but really have no idea. They do not connect but judging by the size of the two areas i wouldn't be surprised if they are joined under the surface.

The areas with the rot feel slightly soft compared to the areas on the side away from the gabble wall. The screwdriver doesn't penetrate the wood. I tried to clear it out as best i could with a brush and the hoover but it just fills the air with dust (don't worry i used my respirator, i assume breathing that stuff in wont be good).

The main concern, i assume, is on the bottom of the beam. I circled the areas in red. Its hard to see from the images but that whole side all the way into the wall, the face of the beam is loose. Prodding it with the screw driver it feels like it's one whole piece but spongy. Like if it was to pry that whole face would come off in one go. I assume from that that the beam is compromised going into the gabble wall. To what extent in the other direction not too sure.

If the beam is compromised i assume, like rust on the car, only way to be sure it cut out the entire compromised section?

I'm going to get someone out and get them to inspect the beam. Ill ask them to inspect all the purlins whilst they are at it.

Out of curiosity if the beam does need repairs what, generally, would be the process? Would the entire purlin be replaced or is it possible to chop out and stitch in a new section?

We have zero load bearing walls on either floor so no idea how the roof would be supported whilst repairs are being done. Would be interesting to see.

In terms of ventilation I assume it is well ventilated. It doesn't smell moldy up there, plenty of fresh air. Plus when i open the front door with the loft door open it creates a large draft so I guess it has good airflow? Iv'e been up there during heavy wind and rain and its dry, however i don't feel any wind but the white sheeting (not sure its name) moves slightly in the wind.
 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Stephen cooper

[Ian]

Doesn’t look like dry rot to me. 

[Ferdinand]

Three things for my perspective. Slightly contrasting view.

 

1 - Is it listed? Need to consider that if so, but you still get to do repairs.

 

2 - If it needs to be done it needs to be done. Dry  rot is cut out and / or repair plus treatment, depending on the attack. Hope it is not dry rot.

 

3 -  y perspective is that a necessary repair is exactly that, and a modern repair is part of the rich story of the house. Don’t cry over spoilt milk or sunk costs (even if not spent yet). If it needs to be done it needs to be done. I am sure you can get  a hand crafted thing, but imo a thing done using the modern materials in the modern age is quite possibly more appropriate - unless it is a conservation place.

 

Personally my taste is towards an honest modern repaired that is appropriate, rather than a simulated traditional one.. It is what it is. yes appreciate the craftsmen, but current craft is just as honest.

 

Hope it is not dry rot.

 

F

[Stephen cooper]

10 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Three things for my perspective. Slightly contrasting view.

 

1 - Is it listed? Need to consider that if so, but you still get to do repairs.

 

2 - If it needs to be done it needs to be done. Dry  rot is cut out and / or repair plus treatment, depending on the attack. Hope it is not dry rot.

 

3 -  y perspective is that a necessary repair is exactly that, and a modern repair is part of the rich story of the house. Don’t cry over spoilt milk or sunk costs (even if not spent yet). If it needs to be done it needs to be done. I am sure you can get  a hand crafted thing, but imo a thing done using the modern materials in the modern age is quite possibly more appropriate - unless it is a conservation place.

 

Personally my taste is towards an honest modern repaired that is appropriate, rather than a simulated traditional one.. It is what it is. yes appreciate the craftsmen, but current craft is just as honest.

 

Hope it is not dry rot.

 

F

Thankfully its not listed. Never considered point 3 like that. I suppose its had modern repairs through out its entire existence. Just what 'modern' is varies depending on time.

After looking more closely at pictures of dry rot, what ever this is does look different (to my un-trained eye) to dry rot. 

[Gone West]

12 hours ago, Stephen cooper said:

Its hard to see from the images but that whole side all the way into the wall, the face of the beam is loose. Prodding it with the screw driver it feels like it's one whole piece but spongy.

TBH it doesn't look like dry rot or wet rot to me but more like woodworm. Your pictures, of the timber surfaces, show lots of little dots of what looks like wood dust caused by woodworm chewing their way out of the wood.

[DavidFrancis]

Could it be the soft sections are actually sapwood (as opposed to heartwood). I have a large lintel where the sapwood has decayed but the heart wood is fine (I hope!)

 

If this is the case you may be OK as long as a decent section of timber is sitting on the wall and the rafter is also supported by a decent section at the top. 

[Stephen cooper]

5 hours ago, PeterStarck said:

TBH it doesn't look like dry rot or wet rot to me but more like woodworm. Your pictures, of the timber surfaces, show lots of little dots of what looks like wood dust caused by woodworm chewing their way out of the wood.

On some of the other beams there are the little holes that I associate with wood worm. I didn't realize the sections essentially reduced to dust is what they do.

Actually it was because of those little holes that i noticed this, due to its location when using the loft for storage i couldn't see  it. I've been cleaning all the beams up then applying woodworm treatment to all the timber up there. 

 

I assumed the holes were historic however but figured i would treat it anyway to be safe. As I've been brushing down and hoovering the beams i haven't noticed any insects on the wood, not i know if they would be noticeable. Judging by the size of the holes i guess there like small ants in size?

Would the insects them selves be noticeable, would they come if the wood is banged? I have been banging around fitting some wedges and never noticed anything coming out the woodwork (actually get to say that literally).

I assume a builder is still the go to trade to get it looked at or is woodworm treatment a specific thing in its own right?

@DavidFrancis no idea sorry, not even sure what type of wood it is. I saw someone elsewhere mention oak and latched onto that because i like the sound of it!

Silver lining if the beam does get replaced i have a huge chunk of salvaged wood I can build something with!

Edited October 26, 2020 by Stephen cooper

[Gone West]

@Stephen cooper In my first house,over 40 years ago, which was a 17th C cottage we had Furniture Beetle and Death Watch Beetle in the timbers. It sounds like Furniture Beetle is what you have and IIRC they have an eighteen month life cycle and it is the larvae that live in the wood, boring little holes, chewing it away. They chew their way out and turn into beetles which fly off to lay their eggs on another bit of wood. Tapping the wood won't affect them at all. If left unchecked they can completely destroy timber beams.

Edited October 26, 2020 by PeterStarck

[joe90]

This might be worth reading.....https://www.petercox.com/blog/top-ten-tips-for-dealing-with-woodworm/

[Stephen cooper]

OK, thanks for the information everyone ?. Feel a bit better knowing what it is i may be facing and have a bit of a plan to get it sorted.

Going to continue treating the rest of the timber up there, at best it will prevent/deter anything from spreading. At worst it'll not make the situation worse.

Ill find somebody who specializes in woodworm, thanks for the link Joe i may give them a shout, to have a look and see if it is active or not.

Then ill get someone to have a look at what's left of the purlin to see if it is structurally sound and go from there. To me it still looks sound but it such a huge thing i don't fancy it falling through the ceiling!

@PeterStarck interesting, so its the larvae that cause the damage. Weve been here for three years now, and been in the attic on a monthly basis and so far the only insects I've seen up there has been a lone wasp. Iv'e not seen any evidence that there as been anything either, no bodies anywhere and I would have found them in the crevices when cleaning all the beams in prep for treatment. I guess this could all be faff over nothing, maybe its a historic issue that has been treated in the past and the purlin was considered still sound.
 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Stephen cooper

[Gone West]

11 hours ago, Stephen cooper said:

Iv'e not seen any evidence that there as been anything either, no bodies anywhere and I would have found them in the crevices when cleaning all the beams in prep for treatment.

We didn't have a loft space, open up to the rafters, and I used to see the little buggers on the window sills. They are very small, 3mm long, and IIRC don't survive as beetles for long after laying the eggs. Most of the evidence of their existence are the little dots of wood dust on the timbers.

[DavidFrancis]

I'm not sure if you got my point. Apologies if you did. See here, for example, for the differences between heartwood and sapwood https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/heartwood-or-sapwood-for-your-projects-3536898.

 

Because sapwood generally has a higher moisture content, it is much more susceptible to decay from rot or insects. A large piece of timber is likely to be mostly heartwood and so could still be pretty good from a structural point of view. That Peter Cox article isn't too bad, but you need to be very careful with woodworm "experts". There's been a great deal of mis-selling and over-treatment from people in the wood preservation and damp treatment business.

 

I think these articles provide some useful info: https://buildingconservation.com/articles/woodworm/woodworm.htm  and https://buildingconservation.com/articles/envmon/timber_decay.htm

 

 

[Stephen cooper]

@DavidFrancis ahh ok i understand now thanks. The purlins are very large and don't look like they've been trimmed/sawn down (not that i would really know what that looks like) so that would make sense.

Ok so based on all the information in the various links i think this may have been evidence of a previous infestation that is no longer active. Some of links mention the frass can be dislodged by vibrations. We are on a main road with busses and lorries right outside so there are plenty of vibrations all day.

In the beams visible on the second floor you can also see holes and sections where it looks like the wood was starting to turn to dust. I assume in the loft is what happens to the beam when an infestation is allowed to progress unchecked for quite some time.

Based on the fact i haven't see any insects in the house or attic (apart from lone wasps) i don't think this is active. I'm still going to apply treatment to it myself anyway as im half way through and it can't hurt to do so.

I will put up some fly trap paper things as mentioned in one of the links and just keep an eye on things. If i see any evidence of insects up there then ill get someone professional in.

I think with this being my first house and never seen anything like this before i panicked a little!

Thanks again for the advice all.

[DavidFrancis]

I nearly had Peter Cox treat one of our bedrooms as the floor joints had woodworm holes, but then I did some reading, and just checked for new frass every couple of years. Not spotted anything yet. Joists are at sub 15%, some sub 10%, moisture, so pretty happy everything is OK.