Saniflo Sanicompact macerator toilet installation with no soil pipe

[howplum]

I'm involved in the renovation of a small Victorian terraced house which has a small bathroom upstairs containing only a bath and washbasin. There has never been a toilet in it, so there is no soil pipe. The bath and basin water discharge into an external hopper, together with rainwater from the roof, the downpipe then discharging into an open P trap with a metal grate. There is then an underground pipe (presumably) to the nearby chamber, which also receives foul waste from the downstairs WC.

 

To install a soil pipe to the chamber is likely to cost several thousand, so using a small macerator toilet, such as the Sanicompact, seems like a workable solution.

 

However, I understand the installation should meet Building Regulations, but I'm not quite clear what they might be. Also, most of the material I have read refers to connecting to a soil pipe, so I am concerned the current open system will not suffice. 

 

[joe90]

First off, have you heard one of these operate?, I would not ever have one, very noisy and prone to failures (so I have heard). Are you sure you can’t get a soil pipe there with out spending £££££? Rather than go under floors you can box them in around a room (which is what I would do rather than a sh1t guzzler ?

[markc]

Maceration units are ok for a basement  as a last resort when you need to push waste uphill. Otherwise avoid like the plague. On upstairs floor boards it would sound like a road drill vibrating through the house . then people avoid using them because they become self concious of everyone else knowing they are using the loo.... ...

[howplum]

Noise issues apart, the unit would be mounted on an outside wall and the waste pipe could drop down at an angle in the direction of the existing WC underground soil pipe. I assume the expense comes with trying to connect the two.

 

Mind you, in that scenario an ordinary toilet would be the way to go, provided there is enough room.

 

Has anyone tried the compact toilets with a small washbasin on top of the cistern?

[ProDave]

Assuming the external hopper into which the sink and bath waste drain to, connects to the SEWER (not a rainwater soakaway) then It would not be hard to connect an external 110mm stack to that to take a proper toilet and well as the bath and shower waste.

 

Pictures might help.

[Mr Punter]

Deffo forget the Saniflo.  I would rather crap in a bucket and leave it in the middle of the bedroom.

 

If your proposed WC is near an outside wall and the drain is in the vicinity is is well worth taking a 110mm pipe out to a new stack pipe connecting into the (combined?) below ground drainage system.

 

 

[Ferdinand]

19 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Assuming the external hopper into which the sink and bath waste drain to, connects to the SEWER (not a rainwater soakaway) then It would not be hard to connect an external 110mm stack to that to take a proper toilet and well as the bath and shower waste.

 

Pictures might help.

And perhaps also a plan of your bathroom.

 

I have had more success with compact basins than wcs, but there is a huge range available if you look hard.

 

F

[howplum]

I am unable to provide pictures, but have attached a scale sketch of the current layout, which I hope helps. As you can see, the bathroom is very compact.

 

19 hours ago, ProDave said:

Assuming the external hopper into which the sink and bath waste drain to, connects to the SEWER (not a rainwater soakaway) then It would not be hard to connect an external 110mm stack to that to take a proper toilet and well as the bath and shower waste.

 

The trap that the grey water and rainwater currently discharge into is below the bathroom window, which is convenient. Based on the assumption that the drain connects to sewer system then perhaps the trap can be replaced by the correct connection for a soil pipe, connected to the (presumably) underground clay pipe. Can the rainwater also discharge into the soil pipe?

 

I should explain that the lady who lives there, on her own, is quite keen on the idea of a macerator toilet, having seen a neighbour's installation, although that's probably based on the belief that a sealed system is not required.

 

We have selected the Sanicompact because of it's dimensions, which are 390mm wide and 435mm deep. Even short projection conventional toilets, with a cistern, start at 600mm deep.

 

Part of the plan is to rehang the door to open outwards and perhaps move the washbasin a little nearer to the door. The toilet can be either on the same wall as the washbasin, or under the  window, although in the former case there is limited room in front of it. I understand there should be at least 50cm clear space in front of it.

 

Taking the long term view it would be best to keep the bath, because it's potentially a family home, although changing it for a shower would free up a lot more room and make it easier for the current occupier, who has some mobility issues. That's another question, but I think the focus here is to see if a toilet can be included without costing thousands to connect it to the sewer.

[joe90]

11 minutes ago, howplum said:

Can the rainwater also discharge into the soil pipe?

only if your sewer is built fir both types of water, your drainage supplier website should tell you, or a call to them.

 

lots of people remove baths to replace with a shower, just more work and cost. It’s a personal choice.

[Mr Punter]

Did you get a quote to connect to the sewer?  I would be very surprised if it runs to thousands.

[Ferdinand]

My thoughts: ?

 

Looking at the plan, I wonder whether it might be easier to just hinge the door the other way which would save hacking around with the frame - a 762mm door should hinge fine into 830mm. I would possibly put a "catch and hold" door holder-opener on it, like this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07CLWN3CS/

 

For the loo, I think I would put it under the window facing along the bathroom, as even with the Sani Compact the 400mm clearance to the bath is still really tight - I think they like 750, and 510 is the required minimum (though no one is going to jump on you for it unless it is subject to rental regulation in one of the more tickboxy places).

 

And I think I would fit a pedestal basin to give for leg clearance when sitting on the loo, and then a carefully chosen wall cabinet for storage.

 

And perhaps a shower over the bath, plus a screen.

 

Is there somewhere to hang a towel, and a radiator? (Might be an argument for outward-hinged door).

 

How are you ventilating? One of my hobby horses is fans with a backdraft shutter.

 

Ferdinand

Edited October 2, 2020 by Ferdinand

[Nickfromwales]

A number of faux pas here chaps. 
1, you can’t discharge yesterday’s vegetable madras into a gully pot as it will have a trap. 
2, you cannot connect to the existing waste pipe work as they’re all gravity and the SF discharge at ~0.7 bar. 
3, Also, look at the Saniflow installation instructions. Page 5 and you’ll see that when you pipe down independently to the ground level ( after altering the groundwork’s to accept the foul discharge directly ) you will need to have a vertical riding pipe also with a suitable air admittance valve to stop the chuffing thing syphoning out ( ever heard the noise a kid makes in McDonalds when they get to the end of the milkshake )....,.

And how did you arrive at the 4-figure sum fir the stack? Did you get a quote or is the old ‘assumption’ being made? That’s a 4-figure job, including adding the rising soil pipe and alterations to the groundwork’s so the rainwater can still have a trapped fully, but £1500-1800 max. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Nickfromwales

[Nickfromwales]

Oh, and did I forget to mention DON’T FIT A SANIFLO. They’re ?

[howplum]

1 hour ago, joe90 said:

only if your sewer is built fir both types of water, your drainage supplier website should tell you, or a call to them.

At the moment both grey and rain water discharge into the sewage system through the same pipe.

 

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

Did you get a quote to connect to the sewer?  I would be very surprised if it runs to thousands.

I believe the occupier was given an informal figure of around £6,000, possibly by a neighbour who is, or was, a  building inspector. However, I think that was on the basis of connecting the existing ground floor WC outlet, which would involve a lot more work than utilising the other drain pipe below the bathroom.

 

42 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Looking at the plan, I wonder whether it might be easier to just hinge the door the other way which would save hacking around with the frame

I have changed a couple doors in my own house to outward opening, so don't see much of a problem. The house needs decorating anyway!

 

45 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

For the loo, I think I would put it under the window facing along the bathroom

I was thinking that also, although design-wise the toilet shouldn't be opposite the door, but we're hardly in a position to observe such niceties.

 

47 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

And I think I would fit a pedestal basin to give for leg clearance when sitting on the loo, and then a carefully chosen wall cabinet for storage.

Excellent ideas.

 

48 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Is there somewhere to hang a towel, and a radiator?

There is no central heating, so she relies on a wall mounted fan heater at the moment. Far Infrared panel heater perhaps?

 

49 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

How are you ventilating? One of my hobby horses is fans with a backdraft shutter.

Nothing formal. Probably just an open window. 

 

I should add that at the same time we are planning to convert the downstairs toilet into a shower room, just in case she can no longer get upstairs.

 

What we trying to do is make life more comfortable for my wife's sister-in-law (long story) who has health issues and very little money, even though the property actually belongs to our son (another long story!).

 

Anyway, thank you for all your ideas and advice - food for thought indeed.

[Nickfromwales]

20 minutes ago, howplum said:

at the same time we are planning to convert the downstairs toilet into a shower room,

That will 100% need proper extraction. 

[howplum]

17 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

1, you can’t discharge yesterday’s vegetable madras into a gully pot as it will have a trap. 

I can see that might be an issue, although that's exactly what has been happening for several decades. The gulley pot (nice to know the correct terminology) accepts waste water from the downstairs WC basin, kitchen sink, upstairs bath and washbasin, as well as rain water. 

 

For obvious reason I assume a soil stack/pipe would not have a trap, but could it accept all of the above, plus toilet waste?

 

25 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

2, you cannot connect to the existing waste pipe work as they’re all gravity and the SF discharge at ~0.7 bar. 

What are the implications?

 

32 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

That’s a 4-figure job, including adding the rising soil pipe and alterations to the groundwork’s so the rainwater can still have a trapped fully, but £1500-1800 max. 

That sounds like a better figure. Are you saying the rainwater needs to be separate?

 

I get the general consensus about macerator toilets, but I'm trying to establish the viability of modifying the current waste system to accept toilet waste.

 

[howplum]

5 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

That will 100% need proper extraction. 

Noted.

[Ferdinand]

30 minutes ago, howplum said:

At the moment both grey and rain water discharge into the sewage system through the same pipe.

 

I believe the occupier was given an informal figure of around £6,000, possibly by a neighbour who is, or was, a  building inspector. However, I think that was on the basis of connecting the existing ground floor WC outlet, which would involve a lot more work than utilising the other drain pipe below the bathroom.

 

I have changed a couple doors in my own house to outward opening, so don't see much of a problem. The house needs decorating anyway!

 

I was thinking that also, although design-wise the toilet shouldn't be opposite the door, but we're hardly in a position to observe such niceties.

 

Excellent ideas.

 

There is no central heating, so she relies on a wall mounted fan heater at the moment. Far Infrared panel heater perhaps?

 

Nothing formal. Probably just an open window. 

 

I should add that at the same time we are planning to convert the downstairs toilet into a shower room, just in case she can no longer get upstairs.

 

What we trying to do is make life more comfortable for my wife's sister-in-law (long story) who has health issues and very little money, even though the property actually belongs to our son (another long story!).

 

Anyway, thank you for all your ideas and advice - food for thought indeed.

 

if you are doing this I would say do a fan as a matter of course.

 

I wrote a series of 6 posts about the conversion of my downstairs bathroom for my mum two years ago, covering what. Perceive t9 be all the issues that details of all the kit I used

 

Here is the index article

 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

Quote

wrote a series of 6 posts about the conversion of my downstairs bathroom for my mum two years ago, covering what. Perceive t9 be all the issues that details of all the kit I used

 

Sorry. Latin Group 3 verb TYP-IRE - "typo, typiss, typit etc - to make a typo".

 

"... covering what I perceive to be all the issues, and with details of all the kit I used ..."

 

F

[Nickfromwales]

3 hours ago, howplum said:

I can see that might be an issue, although that's exactly what has been happening for several decades. The gulley pot (nice to know the correct terminology) accepts waste water from the downstairs WC basin, kitchen sink, upstairs bath and washbasin, as well as rain water. 

Had it been taking foul ( black ) water eg ???

If it’s only been taking kitchen sinks / other bathroom wastes then that’s ( grey ) aka non foul discharge. Big, lumpy, drain blocking difference there  

Edited October 2, 2020 by Nickfromwales

[Nickfromwales]

3 hours ago, howplum said:

That sounds like a better figure. Are you saying the rainwater needs to be separate?

Yes, as that needs to discharge into a trapped gulley, eg so stench doesn’t emit from ground level. The black / foul connection needs to be unhindered flow to the sewer and any rising stench needs to be dealt with by the ( new ) foul stack getting to the upper floor to collect the new WC but then continuing upward to soffit height and then being open to atmosphere to 1) vent the sewer gasses, and 2) allow an influx of air to alleviate the vacuum deficit created in the pipe by flushing the upper WC. That air admittance stops any connected traps ( including the water level in the WC itself ) from being ‘sucked’ dry by said vacuum. 
Easy this plumbing lark, ain’t it  

[Nickfromwales]

3 hours ago, howplum said:

For obvious reason I assume a soil stack/pipe would not have a trap, but could it accept all of the above, plus toilet waste?

Yup. Then you can just have one external pipe that accepts anything and everything waste wise. You’d still need a rainwater down pipe though. 

 

3 hours ago, howplum said:

What are the implications?

You’re connected traps ( bath and basins ) turning into ? emitting crop sprayers every time the SF pumped out. 

 

3 hours ago, howplum said:

I get the general consensus about macerator toilets, but I'm trying to establish the viability of modifying the current waste system to accept toilet waste.

Employ a plumber to tell you  ?