What would you do?

[Pete]

This wall is a dividing wall between us and the neighbours. As you can see it is a fairly substantial wall and very old. Over the years the houses on the other side have raised their ground levels and in some cases it is nearly a metre higher than on our side. The reason for the post is I think it is moving, albeit very slowly. I want to try and involve the neighbours in a nice way to try and avoid very costly repairs. The wall may never need repairing in our lifetime but if it does then I want to ensure that the neighbours are aware of the situation now and what will happen if the wall does need repairing in the future and they do not do anything to mitigate the pressure of the higher ground level on the other side.

I may add that the present neighbours are not responsible for the increase in ground level, it was previous owner's that did this. 

I get on well with most of the neighbours except the one were the wall is leaning the most. I am prepared to go and see then to have a chat and then possibly get a solicitors letter so we have proof of contact stating that we think the pressure needs to reduced in order to prevent further movement of the wall.

Can anybody think of anything different without costing the earth in legal fees or really upsetting the neighbours? TIA

[joe90]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

I think it is moving,

do you have any evidence/proof? As that would be required (I guess) before you did anything. Was it built as a retaining wall originally? What do your deeds say regarding ownership? 

 

[Pete]

1 minute ago, joe90 said:

do you have any evidence/proof? As that would be required (I guess) before you did anything. Was it built as a retaining wall originally? What do your deeds say regarding ownership? 

 

The neighbour I do not get on with had a bbq built 2 years ago right next to this wall and when I was doing some work on top of the wall recently I noticed that there is now a gap between the bbq and this wall of about 20mm. I understand I may have to set up some kind of monitoring device to prove we have degree of movement but just wondered what the best course of action would be. 

Regarding the deeds, the conversation with our solicitor went something along the lines of " if you want me to spend alot of your well earned cash on determining who owns the walls then I will gladly do so but seen as they are probably over 200 years old I may never be able to give you a definitive answer" so we have left it and assume that if we have any problems in the future then the costs would be split evenly but not if we are not responsible for the wall leaning!

[joe90]

@Pete You have got a good solicitor, most would tell you to press ahead,!!,!. It strikes me that if his bar b que (built on his land) is not moving with the wall then his ground is not pressing on the wall otherwise it would move with the wall. I guess you need to monitor the situation, how to do this I don’t know, laser and measurements? Distance from your buildings?

[Pete]

30 minutes ago, joe90 said:

@Pete You have got a good solicitor, most would tell you to press ahead,!!,!. It strikes me that if his bar b que (built on his land) is not moving with the wall then his ground is not pressing on the wall otherwise it would move with the wall. I guess you need to monitor the situation, how to do this I don’t know, laser and measurements? Distance from your buildings?

Good point about the bbq. All I would say is the bbq is at one end of the leaning section. When I look over the wall the bulging section almost follows the built up section of land on the other side and were the land is almost at the same level as our side there is no bulge.

[Ferdinand]

So I take it the deeds do not show responsibility for maintaining the boundary?

Admit I do not know how the traditional "land supported has responsibility for supporting structure"  would play out here.

 

I have one I am just about to ask about that is probably in worse condition, but not quite do formidable.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Ferdinand

[ProDave]

I rewired an old cottage a few years ago and that had a retaining boundary wall that was bulging quite badly, this cottage was on the lower side.

 

The other neghbour was not bothered, taking the attitude it has not fallen down yet.  So the person renovating the cottage paid for a new retaining wall.

[Temp]

Firstly they need planning permission to raise ground levels more than about 150mm. Comes under "raised platforms". However the planners may ask if you have any evidence the level has been raised. There is also a 4 year "statute of limitations" so if more than 4 years ago the planners can't take action.

 

Normally retaining walls are the responsibility of the supported land.

 

I think you need to decide if you want to own the wall and how heavy you want to get at this stage. It doesn't look too bad to me at the moment.

 

If it's your wall and they have raised the ground levels and it's damaging the walI I believe they could be liable but you might have to prove it in court.

 

http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/boundary-problems/fences.html

 

Leaning things against your neighbour's fence, hanging things on your neighbour's fence, even using your neighbour's fence as a makeshift retaining wall, will place a much heavier burden on the fence panels and supporting posts than they were designed to bear. The consequences of such actions are easy enough to predict and you will be liable for the cost of any repairs. On top of that you will still have to do, and pay for, the work that you did incorrectly and which resulted in the damage to your neighbour's fence.

 

If it's their wall and it fails they are not obliged to repair it (There is no obligation to fence land). However if it becomes dangerous or causes injuries they can be held liable. Retaining walls can be very dangerous and Building Control may take an interest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-19841005

 

If it's your wall you are not obliged to replace it with another wall unless they have acquired a right to rely on it for support.

 

Let's suppose you detect the wall getting worse and a friendly chat fails to get them to lower ground levels. Then I supose you would have to get a solicitor involved. I would expect a solicitor would write to them and say something like..

 

You are concerned that rising ground levels is causing the wall to lean and might be putting the wall at risk. He might point out that you do not know who owns the wall but that..

 

a) If it's yours and it falls down due to their actions you may hold them liable for repair costs.  You do not believe they have a right of support and you do not consent to them using it for support (aka a retaining wall).

 

b) if it's their wall then they are liable for it's maintenance (if they want to keep the wall) and any injuries or damages it causes if it fails. Copy BBC article.

 

You could also add that if someone continues with actions after being warned of the danger (as you are doing in this letter) and that leads to damage to life or property they can also be held liable for additional damages for negligence. 

 

Meanwhile I would check your own house insurance.

[Ferdinand]

The house insurance call is a good Plan B.

 

If the level has raised over time, then it will have achieved a position where it cannot be enforced under *Planning* rules due to time (10  years?).

 

There may be some "right to support" achieved under Common Law, which I think is 20 years, by the same process that a "right to drain onto adjacent land" is created by the existence of such unopposed and tolerated drainage. I am not sure of the detail on that.

 

I do not think you will fix this easily through legal process; imo redoing the wall may be less expensive.

 

Would your insurance covers it if it collapses?

 

On the BBQ, are you sure it has moved, or was the BBQ built away from the wall? I would do so if I was aware, and would have documented it.

 

Horribly tricky. Sorry you have this issue.

 

Ferdinand

 

[Temp]

Have you looked at your and their title deeds? Sometimes the old ones have "T" marking which walls or fences are yours.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Temp

[Big Jimbo]

1 hour ago, Temp said:

Have you looked at your and their title deeds? Sometimes the old ones have "T" marking which walls or fences are yours.

Just remember that "T" marks on deeds are not recognised by judges in planning law. (They have no legal status)