Structural Engineer

[Mike_scotland]

Our plan is to go to TF company and get wind and water tight then go ourselfs

[SuperJohnG]

@Mike_scotland

 

Just FYI. I'm currently using David Narro  associates (Glasgow and Edinburgh) they are hired by my kit supplier (SIPSECO) to do the superstructure design costs are as per above which is included in my kit price. But I agreed to select them as they were happy to work with tanners for the foundation design and also do the SER sign off and didnt really bat an eyelid. Whereas lots of other didnt want to commit to that. 

 

They done my SI 3 weeks ago (400 quid) and will do the SER for 600 (might be 650). So far seem to respond quickly and quite diligent. 

 

SI report was delivered back within 2 days and have done foundation loads for me with 2 weeks. I can provide an update once they finish in few weeks if you like. 

[Mike_scotland]

Does anyone know... do we need construction drawings or what? 

 

My architect has all but said 1250 is too cheap something is a miss. But I like the guys having spoken to them.

[SuperJohnG]

are they dong the SER? 

[Mike_scotland]

11 minutes ago, SuperJohnG said:

are they dong the SER? 

Yes. 

[Mike_scotland]

11 minutes ago, SuperJohnG said:

are they dong the SER? 

Doing everything but they specifically stated there drawings for building warrant are not construction drawings.

[Carrerahill]

26 minutes ago, SuperJohnG said:

are they dong the SER? 

Do a proper set of SE drawings and calcs and you can submit that without a SER - that is just a silly fee payable "club" which acts like a certificate to confirm all is well. BC will take full design packages and check them over and accept or reject until they are happy.

 

People have got caught up on the SER train and need to stop wasting money on it when they have already paid for a structural design.

 

We don't do SER.

 

 

[SuperJohnG]

24 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

Do a proper set of SE drawings and calcs and you can submit that without a SER - that is just a silly fee payable "club" which acts like a certificate to confirm all is well. BC will take full design packages and check them over and accept or reject until they are happy.

 

People have got caught up on the SER train and need to stop wasting money on it when they have already paid for a structural design.

 

We don't do SER.

 

 

I questioned the need for this and as you say, you are paying twice and it's just to save the council money. However one thing that was highlighted to me is time....if the LA are doing it, I was told (rightly or wrongly) I might be waiting a while. I paid £600 for my SER, I think a £200 discount is applied or similar. 

 

I agree it's a bit of a piss take, but it is what it is. 

[SuperJohnG]

43 minutes ago, Mike_scotland said:

Doing everything but they specifically stated there drawings for building warrant are not construction drawings.

 It does seem cheap to me to...but maybe right. Get it all in writing and it'll be fine. 

[the_r_sole]

30 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

Do a proper set of SE drawings and calcs and you can submit that without a SER - that is just a silly fee payable "club" which acts like a certificate to confirm all is well. BC will take full design packages and check them over and accept or reject until they are happy.

 

People have got caught up on the SER train and need to stop wasting money on it when they have already paid for a structural design.

 

We don't do SER.

 

 

Seriously?

 

The SER costs buttons and speeds up the process no end when the engineer has done the design, there are some local authorities who can take months to turn around engineer queries, we literally use them for every project! ?

Edited October 1, 2020 by the_r_sole

[Carrerahill]

2 hours ago, the_r_sole said:

Seriously?

 

The SER costs buttons and speeds up the process no end when the engineer has done the design, there are some local authorities who can take months to turn around engineer queries, we literally use them for every project! ?

Quite.

 

LA's I deal with are all pretty quick as the SE's in the LA only usually have about a 2 week lead time, I suspect things may be different in England. A bit like tips, I have never in my life queued to enter a tip in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Scottish Borders or the Highlands. Population thing.

 

 

[the_r_sole]

21 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

Quite.

 

LA's I deal with are all pretty quick as the SE's in the LA only usually have about a 2 week lead time, I suspect things may be different in England. A bit like tips, I have never in my life queued to enter a tip in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Scottish Borders or the Highlands. Population thing.

 

 

 

I don't think they use the SER system in England at all - I genuinely can't think of the last project we've done without SER - maybe it's just the way the engineers proposals are set out but there isn't usually a huge premium for having the design certified or not - the last one I tried to do without SER was Perth and Kinross (on my folks house) and they said it would be three months for review!

[eandg]

Definitely takes longer in Scotland without an SER - and I know at least one local authority which has been unable to procure external contractors to do the work for them (jobs too small, infrequent, low-value etc for engineers to be interested in jumping through the procurement hoops when business is good). 

[Gus Potter]

Thank you for you post Carrerahill. Very refreshing.

 

The SER (Ltd) scheme is worth a bit more scrutiny, in particular in relation to the self build / house extension market in Scotland.

 

I also appreciate the R_Sole's contribution, both Carrerahill and the Sole make good points.

 

Broadly speaking there are two approaches to this..and it's partly about the money. Here is a bit of a summary.

 

1/ Much depends on what council area you are in.. if you submit calculations instead of an SER (Ltd) certificate building control will either get their own in house Enginneers to check the calcs or contract it out.. often to the same set of SER Engineers! When you prepare calculations (old school) you present them in the same format that the SER Engineers use. An SER Engineer should be doing the same amount of work, calculations, checking stability and so on as someone who is not SER registered. If not why not? Are other Enginners from Wales, England, France etc less capable / dilligent. Carrerahill perhaps alludes to this.

 

2/ It's horses for courses. If you look carefully at some of the SER quotes that have been posted on this site they are a bit vague. What are you actually getting for you money? Dig a bit deeper and you'll see that a lot of it is an audit process. There are two schools of thought here. The SER scheme makes much of how their members are highly experienced, this is true and for large projects you may want an SER member just to get it over the line in Scotland. But for a self build, extension etc you have an alternative. Consider the traditional route, as accepted in the rest of the UK. You'll also find that the "old school" folk also talk to the council Engineers on a regular basis as the council Engineers use this as part of their CPD and this gives weight to Carrera's point that the process in certain council areas is often not slowed down significantly.

 

You BC officer, along with the council's Engineers will require a detailed set of drawings and calculations from the Engineer. Yes, this may cost you more on appearance but these drawings along with a good specification can form the basis of your contract with the builder, your SER certificate is of less use. This is where you will realise savings unless you pay your Architect to produce a full set of contract / construction drawings, specification and so on. But when you combine (coordinate) a good set of Engineer's drawings with the Architect's drawings (and they work closely together) it can be a good package which can save you money. Also ask, is it beneficial to have an independant check made by the council Enginneers who have no commercial interest. If an SER certificate is presented then the council have to accept this, even if they have reservations.

 

3/ If you go down the traditional route your Engineer will often have a much more hands on approach and be on tap when you need them. They will for example produce the panel drawings for the timber frame as the council Engineers want to see these. This allows you to get a local joiner to build the kit so you don't need to go to a main stream manufacturer or you can make the kit yourself. There are other benefits in that the Engineer will work often work much more closely with you and your Architect to make sure the structure really fits in with the vision. Yes, you need to pay apparently more up front. But ask this.. if you go to  a main stream kit manufacture say, they have their own in house designers and they need to be paid too. That cost is hidden in the kit price for example.

 

In summary, it's worth exploring this more.  Carrerahill and the Sole are both correct but much depends on how fast you want to go, how you want to go about it , your cost curve / programme and what you want to do yourself and so on. There are potentially big savings to be made by avoiding or at least comparing the option of the non SER route.

 

I work with a few Architect's who embrace the "old school" i.e non SER route as it give them another option to present to their clients for consideration.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike_scotland]

Scope

 

• Receive information on likely ground conditions.

• Carry out structural designs.

• Quotation based upon the design of normal foundations. The Design of abnormal foundations such as piles and groundbeams is not included.

• Produce AutoCad drawings for onward submission to Building Control.

• Provide structural design certification (Note: SER Ltd certificate application fee to be refunded by Client).

• The drawings that we produce are not construction drawings but describe a specification that can be used and developed by a competent building contractor experienced in the type of work described by the Architect.

• Assess competent package of contractor designed items received within 24 months of generating the SER Certificate and complete a Form Q – Included.

• Drainage designs not included.

• Post-Warrant input and site visits during construction not included.

• Any work after our input for Building Warrant to be charged at £60/hr. This work to be sanctioned by the Client prior to any additional input by ourselves.

• Normal expenses for printing and postage included.

• Temporary works designs not included.

• Waterproofing/Tanking by others.

• Role of the Principle Designer as defined by the Construction (Design and Management) Regulations 2015 is not included. Please note that the Client must be made aware of their responsibilities under the current CDM Regulations. Proposed Fee • Lump Sum Fee = £1,250 + VAT.

I hope that you will find the above to be acceptable.

 

 

This is what is included - all seems fine to me except the 6th sentence down,

 

" The drawings that we produce are not construction drawings but describe a specification that can be used and developed by a competent building contractor experienced in the type of work described by the Architect"

The SE also said they don't do construction at this stage it is done later and is hardly needed in my circumstance or my type of build.

 

Only thing I'm slightly concerned about - do we need construction drawings? Don't want to try sending out our drawings for TF kits or contractors and get told they can't price it up of they drawings.

[the_r_sole]

On 02/10/2020 at 00:46, Gus Potter said:

Snip 

 

It's interesting as clearly your mileage may vary with an engineer but the points you've raised as positives of not using SER isn't really my experience at all, the engineers we work with always give us a fully detailed design and work with us to get everything detailed in the right way (as in, complements out design intention) 

We've had panel drawings produced by engineers who have also provided the SER without issue also? Maybe its just bad engineers who aren't giving a proper design service which some of you have experienced? 

For me the SER just confirms the design the engineer has produced is compliant and can get a discount on the warrant fee and speed up the process!

One of my biggest problems at the moment has been getting  information from a certain kit manufacturer to satisfy our engineer for the SER requirements... but I think the SER process itself has also become more stringent than previously. 

Maybe we've just been lucky with the SER engineers or unlucky with local authorities!

[the_r_sole]

On 02/10/2020 at 12:39, Mike_scotland said:

Scope

 

• Receive information on likely ground conditions.

• Carry out structural designs.

• Quotation based upon the design of normal foundations. The Design of abnormal foundations such as piles and groundbeams is not included.

• Produce AutoCad drawings for onward submission to Building Control.

• Provide structural design certification (Note: SER Ltd certificate application fee to be refunded by Client).

• The drawings that we produce are not construction drawings but describe a specification that can be used and developed by a competent building contractor experienced in the type of work described by the Architect.

• Assess competent package of contractor designed items received within 24 months of generating the SER Certificate and complete a Form Q – Included.

• Drainage designs not included.

• Post-Warrant input and site visits during construction not included.

• Any work after our input for Building Warrant to be charged at £60/hr. This work to be sanctioned by the Client prior to any additional input by ourselves.

• Normal expenses for printing and postage included.

• Temporary works designs not included.

• Waterproofing/Tanking by others.

• Role of the Principle Designer as defined by the Construction (Design and Management) Regulations 2015 is not included. Please note that the Client must be made aware of their responsibilities under the current CDM Regulations. Proposed Fee • Lump Sum Fee = £1,250 + VAT.

I hope that you will find the above to be acceptable.

 

 

This is what is included - all seems fine to me except the 6th sentence down,

 

" The drawings that we produce are not construction drawings but describe a specification that can be used and developed by a competent building contractor experienced in the type of work described by the Architect"

The SE also said they don't do construction at this stage it is done later and is hardly needed in my circumstance or my type of build.

 

Only thing I'm slightly concerned about - do we need construction drawings? Don't want to try sending out our drawings for TF kits or contractors and get told they can't price it up of they drawings.

 

They'll be able to price it up, I think you are overthinking it, get the drawings and design done for the stage of the project you are at, and if you need more information down the line you need more information.  If you're going with a kit manufacturer they'll produce their own engineering calcs etc anyway 

[Gus Potter]

On 03/10/2020 at 19:46, the_r_sole said:

 

It's interesting as clearly your mileage may vary with an engineer but the points you've raised as positives of not using SER isn't really my experience at all, the engineers we work with always give us a fully detailed design and work with us to get everything detailed in the right way (as in, complements out design intention) 

We've had panel drawings produced by engineers who have also provided the SER without issue also? Maybe its just bad engineers who aren't giving a proper design service which some of you have experienced? 

For me the SER just confirms the design the engineer has produced is compliant and can get a discount on the warrant fee and speed up the process!

One of my biggest problems at the moment has been getting  information from a certain kit manufacturer to satisfy our engineer for the SER requirements... but I think the SER process itself has also become more stringent than previously. 

Maybe we've just been lucky with the SER engineers or unlucky with local authorities!

The sole makes some good points..

 

I agree that mileage with Engineers may vary..some provide a good service others less so, some provide more details, others less.

 

I can understand why the Sole makes the point that the positives I made of looking at alternatives to the SER scheme are not the Sole's current experience. Different councils operate in different ways, for example Argyll and Bute often contract out all submitted calculations for review to local SER Engineers.

 

I'll not dwell on this too much but the SER scheme was intitially set up with all the best intentions, however one could now ask if it has in some ways lost it's way, particularly with respect to the domestic, small works type of job.

 

The sole makes a point of having received panel drawings.. There are generic panel drawings (cut and paste), and there are the real ones that a local joiner can work to, there is a world of difference between the two. Generic ones can be produced in a morning.. with a bun and a coffee, proper working and annotated drawings take a few days to produce.. the sheeting layout, the cutting list, practical guidance notes to the builder and so on, and most importantly; the tricky joint details, interface with the insulation details and so on..and integrate this with the Architect's design. It is these finer points that stop your house from falling down! You'll see some other quotes that state.. ".. on the basis that a competant contractor will develop the detailed design and adjust on site etc " and so on.. what are you actually paying for?

 

The Sole sums this up in that the SER Engineer "confirms the design is compliant" ... in other words is conducting to some extent an audit process. If you submit calculations to BC then  do they not check these for compliance? My experience is that they do.. but you don't get the smallish SER discount on the warrant fee.

 

Yes, you get a discount on the warrant fee, it's often not that much compared with the savings you can make by having your own comprehensive set of drawings and calculations that you can use to tender to a local builder who will make the kit and supply all the insulation etc that you need, with the cost of each material item presented in a transparent way if you press for this.  Yes, an SER certificate can sometimes speed up the process, much depends on where you are.. in fact doing it the "old school way" ..calculations + comprehensive drawings submitted to BC with no SER certificate can be faster than the SER route!.. my experience.

 

It's interesting to see how the Sole notes that the SER process has become more "stringent". My feedback today from a local BC officer is that this is " partly to do with the audit process.. too many cooks" at the SER Ltd rather than a "quality issue".

 

To get the best bang for your buck it's worth exploring all the alternatives, tried and accepted "traditional route" and the SER route. If your designer indicates that you have use an SER Engineer then ask about at other options before you commit to the SER route. You can get warrants through Argyll and Bute without an SER, yes it may take a bit longer but you can make significant savings depending on how you want to set things up.

 

In summary, consider what is best suited to your method of construction, programme and tailored to how much you want to do yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[the_r_sole]

Interesting points @Gus Potter

I remember doing a couple of warrants with the small buildings guidance back in the day too...

I guess for me, I have a small group of engineers that I use based on experience of dealing with them, and I've not asked any of them to do a package without SER, the last engineer I used who wasn't SER had hand drawn details (literally biro mark ups of my drawings) ?

[Gow]

On 02/10/2020 at 00:46, Gus Potter said:

 If an SER certificate is presented then the council have to accept this, even if they have reservations.

 

t

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gow]

Once the SER certificate is presented to GCC how long should you have to wait before the said council grants a Building Warrant in normal times and, at present, in abnormal times?

[the_r_sole]

3 hours ago, Gow said:

Once the SER certificate is presented to GCC how long should you have to wait before the said council grants a Building Warrant in normal times and, at present, in abnormal times?

Glasgow City Council?

[Gus Potter]

Hello all.

 

Gow I think quoted part of an earlier post I made "If an SER certificate is presented then the council have to accept this, even if they have reservations." 

 

Could you expand? Your post stops.. so not sure what you are asking.

 

Gow you also asked about normal times for warrant processing. My experience (Pre COVID) is that with an SER certificate in Glasgow you may get you warrant a couple of weeks sooner than if you submit calcs. However, much depends on the overall quality of the submission. You can get hung up on say the positioning of a CO alarm! If you have a designer that is in regular contact with BC then many potential queries are sorted out, clarified, just in the day to day process. The BCO does not have to spend time writing comments and so on when they can just get a reasoned explanation over the phone or if need be get a note or two added to a drawing.

 

At the moment it's all over the place. I had a warrant through from one of the Renfrewshire Councils in less than five weeks with calcs rather than SER route, often faster than pre covid. On the other hand I have one with another Council that at the moment is just stuck in the admin / computer system ether although the BCO and checking Engineers are happy. The computer just says "no" Don't forget that a lot of the council IT is well behind the times. A lot of the Planners and BCO's are doing their best, it's just that the systems are not able to cope at moment.

 

The Sole makes really good points. Different Councils operate in different ways. So If you are in Argyll and Bute then you should try and seek out designers like the Sole.

 

One thing I have tried to highlight is that as a self builder /extender in Scotland you are not confined to the SER route alone. Look at the options you have and the best thing for you.