Mandana Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Hi there Has anyone ever come across a “hidden elevation” charge? Basically our house design has areas that cannot be seen looking straight on as the plans are drawn. I’m attaching a view from the model we can see on our computers (BIMx) which our architect did for us to get visuals of the house. If you’re looking at that elevation head on with drawings the return wall (arrowed) cannot be seen. Our contractor is charging us for these areas which have stone cladding. We are saying we had a fixed contract and it’s not our fault he didn’t know they were there, or that there wasn’t a discussion between them and the architect. Any advice? Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_r_sole Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 How can that not be seen on the elevation drawings?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandana Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 11 minutes ago, the_r_sole said: How can that not be seen on the elevation drawings?! The drawing is face-on and that return wall is hidden. See attached ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_r_sole Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 but where's the side elevation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandana Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, the_r_sole said: but where's the side elevation? The garage hides it from the side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_r_sole Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 well, if you haven't provided a drawing to show it, or explained anywhere in the information you have given them to price it on - then I think you're hard pushed to say he should have known it was stone cladding on the reveal! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundtuit Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Looks like the garage sits back a bit, behind the downpipe. The whole overhang part should appear on the side elevation surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandana Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 Just now, the_r_sole said: well, if you haven't provided a drawing to show it, or explained anywhere in the information you have given them to price it on - then I think you're hard pushed to say he should have known it was stone cladding on the reveal! They had full drawings from groundworks up and they constructed the house (SIPs). They assumed the returns were render but the architect designed them with cladding. We’re first time builders so didn’t know to even mention this to the builders, or to ask the architect to ensure everyone knew which finish was where in “hidden” areas. These guys have been doing this for years so we clearly wrongly assumed they knew what questions to ask. Considering they work very closely with the architects (they’re next to each other and family work in both businesses) you’d have thought they would ask. Right? Wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Not the contractors fault imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandana Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Roundtuit said: Looks like the garage sits back a bit, behind the downpipe. The whole overhang part should appear on the side elevation surely? That’s not the garage. It’s the link between the garage and the house so the garage hides this area on that particular elevation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_r_sole Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Mandana said: They had full drawings from groundworks up and they constructed the house (SIPs). They assumed the returns were render but the architect designed them with cladding. We’re first time builders so didn’t know to even mention this to the builders, or to ask the architect to ensure everyone knew which finish was where in “hidden” areas. These guys have been doing this for years so we clearly wrongly assumed they knew what questions to ask. Considering they work very closely with the architects (they’re next to each other and family work in both businesses) you’d have thought they would ask. Right? Wrong! I'm afraid it;s your responsibility to explain and describe the building you are asking the contractor to build, although your floor plans should show the cladding too. What's to stop you saying it was something different, way more expensive there? The contractor is well within their rights to charge you for something you haven't told them about Edited July 16, 2020 by the_r_sole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandana Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, Roundtuit said: Looks like the garage sits back a bit, behind the downpipe. The whole overhang part should appear on the side elevation surely? Side elevation - garage hides the front door area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandana Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 3 minutes ago, the_r_sole said: I'm afraid it;s your responsibility to explain and describe the building you are asking the contractor to build, although your floor plans should show the cladding too. What's to stop you saying it was something different, way more expensive there? The contractor is well within their rights to charge you for something you haven't told them about Thank you for your candor. Sadly it’s not just a few hundred quid. It’s many thousands, hence looking for advice. Appreciated. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_r_sole Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 If we have a detail like that, we would do partial elevations to show the full building (actually working on a u-shaped house at the moment where we have done 6 elevations to show where everything is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_r_sole Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Just now, Mandana said: Thank you for your candor. Sadly it’s not just a few hundred quid. It’s many thousands, hence looking for advice. Appreciated. Thank you. Did they only price on a set of drawings, or did you give them a schedule of works/bill of quantities etc? In all seriousness, take a step back and look at the elevation drawings you have given to the contractor, then ask what clues would tell him to price that as stone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandana Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, the_r_sole said: Did they only price on a set of drawings, or did you give them a schedule of works/bill of quantities etc? In all seriousness, take a step back and look at the elevation drawings you have given to the contractor, then ask what clues would tell him to price that as stone? They built the structure from a full set of drawings. They’re building the envelope for us ... groundworks to watertight/roof on, render and cladding complete. So our inexperience and not knowing to even ask the question, and assuming if they were actually building the house they’d know to ask the architect what was where has cost us dearly? Ugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_r_sole Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 When you tender a project to a builder, you have to give them all the information to price, if you dont, they make assumptions - and they'll usually not assume the same as you do. Tender drawings should identify all the finishes and their location and also have a wall type breakdown - you can't expect a contractor to ask all the questions you think they should, you've said you didn't tell them because they should have asked but if you knew, you should have given them all the information required for accurate pricing. Did you pay your architect to prepare tender documents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandana Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 11 minutes ago, the_r_sole said: When you tender a project to a builder, you have to give them all the information to price, if you dont, they make assumptions - and they'll usually not assume the same as you do. Tender drawings should identify all the finishes and their location and also have a wall type breakdown - you can't expect a contractor to ask all the questions you think they should, you've said you didn't tell them because they should have asked but if you knew, you should have given them all the information required for accurate pricing. Did you pay your architect to prepare tender documents? No tender drawings. If there’s ever a next time (highy unlikely!) we’ll know to have them, and we’ll know to make sure every inch is accounted for on the drawings. Huge learning curve! Thanks for your help. Appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 I think this could easily have been marked on a plan drawing fairly easily plus an arrow on the elevation with the material shown. The architect could have done this in a few minutes without producing more sets of drawings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundtuit Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Ok, so it looks like the garage is not featured on the model in the first post. Personally, I think the architect has been a bit remiss and I'm surprised the planners didn't want to see that detail in your application. Don't beat yourselves up about it; I expect most of us have paid a price for the self- build 'learning experience'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundtuit Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Just as a further thought, and I understand you'll have to sleep on this for a few nights; I think the return wall will look just fine rendered, and you can invest the saved cash in something else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Appreciate your frustration but if the contractor did not price for it then you're not being charged for something that's not been delivered. If the tender had those extra few thousand in it at the start, would you have noticed? Agree that you should consider render if the money is just not there now. We had many self inflicted disappointments on our build that caused sleepless nights - I screwed up the front door order and instead of a 1100mm door got 900mm with extra glass to the side - £5k so not trivial. However now I'd be hard pushed to notice or care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 6 hours ago, the_r_sole said: I'm afraid its your responsibility to explain and describe the building you are asking the contractor to build ... Indeed. And a lesson I have had to learn the hard way. The answer to the problem is - in part - flexibility. A dash of quick, creative thinking on site helps a lot too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) When I do fabrication drawings I'll do the standard top, side and end 3 views but will often provide a 3D view(s) too. Tbh I'll often JUST dimension a 3D view. I generally draw just small, bespoke brackets mind. A picture says a thousand etc. I'll even give the fabricator a flash looking render of the item. I think the best way is to admit to the builder you understand the fault doesn't lie with him (don't admit it's your fault). It'll build bridges. I'd let the architect know you're not happy though. Ask is there some way the elevation could maybe be temporarily clad or sheeted with a view to doing the cladding later. Does the cladding get stuck onto blockwork or mesh etc? Edited July 17, 2020 by Onoff 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandana Posted July 17, 2020 Author Share Posted July 17, 2020 So this morning I emailed our accountant and told him we’ve had a hefty bill for these hidden elevations (and other ‘unforeseen’ stuff). This was his response ... Not all elevations and sections of every in-go, return or change in material would be taken as part of the drawing process, these walls are clearly shown in plan and section and we would expect these to be quantified for by reading all of the drawings in conjunction with one another. The model is issued to the client as a walk round tool to visualise the design in greater detail, this is issued to [construction company] for preparing the drawings but not to [main contractor*] or sub-contractors unless you choose to issue to the contractor as additional information. The soffit areas over the great room and front door can clearly be read from the roof plan and elevation, giving a total length and depth for the area, this is traditionally how drawings have been read and will continue to be read when taking a bill of materials as the model cannot be measured from. These areas have always been part of the design and are not a new element that is now extra. Unfortunately we have not been included in discussions with your contractor or sub-contractors during the quotation process and therefore could not provide comment on the original information provided. Project managing a self-build is very difficult if you are not from the industry, we are here for any advice you need to help you through the process. *our frame builder is the same team but under a different company for the main contractor. We didn’t know the other company even existed until just before we signed the contract. We are not project managing ourselves. We handed the whole external build over as we felt we weren’t knowledgeable enough. Thank god we did, however, by handing it over and paying more, we weren’t expecting issues like this to arise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now