What electric heating and DHW for small new build flat?

[Mr Punter]

I am building 3 new flats in Brighton. 2 bed ground floor 70m2, 1 bed first floor 40m2 and 1 bed second (top) floor 43m2.  I will be letting the finished units so I am looking for low maintenance.

 

I would prefer not to have gas in the building as I understand the drive is to de-carbonise.

 

There will be shower only - no bath - and I would like it to perform well.  There is a bit of space outside for heat pump units if needed.  The roof has some solar PV.

 

What would be good to specify?

[SteamyTea]

3 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

I will be letting the finished units so I am looking for low maintenance.

Storage heaters, size them correctly and they will last decades.

 

3 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

There will be shower only - no bath - and I would like it to perform well. 

Assuming a good water pressure, then maybe an inline heater, if pressure/flow is bad, then storage and a pump/accumulator.

If you can fit a vented system, then you have no certificates/annual checks needed.

If you have hard water, then you will need to fit and maintain a water softener, can't rely on tenants to do that.

Should be able to divert PV easily to the DHW system.

 

Or ask a plumber and they will come along with a complicated and expensive system for you, maybe even a Sunamp.

Edited June 24, 2020 by SteamyTea

[ProDave]

That is a tough decision.

 

In days gone by without hesitation I would say storage heaters.  That is a landlords friend, though a system few people actually like.

 

Heat pumps work well, but they have "niggles"  Mine has a habit of throwing a random error and needing resetting. They are slow to heat a tank of hot water.  I would be uneasy with them in a rental as you would need someone who truly understands them on hand, and might get a lot of "no hot water" complaints?

 

The real basic, simple (but not cheapest for bills) is electric panel heaters.  Can't beat them for simplicity and understanding, and I see an increasing number of rentals switching from storage heaters to panel heaters.

 

Would a 10kW shower satisfy the shower needs?  if so you only need a small water heater for the basin and kitchen sink.  Plenty of tenants manage on 8kW showers so a 10kW would be relative luxury.

[joth]

3 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

I would prefer not to have gas in the building as I understand the drive is to de-carbonise.

 

Just to check this point, is your concern that qualified engineers, parts/replacements or even the delivery of gas itself will become difficult over time? I personally can't see that happening for many decades, as a nation we're so hooked on it, and it'll need a very very significant change in pricing to really retrofit folks off it. If they're paying people to move off it, you might as well go with it now and take the cash incentive when it's offered. (Plus, there is still the slim possibility we'll see CO2 near-neutral gas someday and there'll be no need to do any of this)

Obviously if you preference is driven by deeper ideological basis around this point then fair enough (and I'm with you).

 

For low maintenance at a fixed (low) capital investment, and with an eye to minimizing emissions, I'd say put all the £  you can into upgrading insulation, airtightness, reducing the need for heating of any sort, and then go with the very best value for money combi boiler deal you can find.

(As a landlord I found a system boiler a nightmare as our tenants couldn't understand a timer switch and had repeated emergency call outs to adjust it.  We fitted a combi boiler and never had another issue)

 

Just my 2p worth.

[Temp]

4 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

I am building 3 new flats in Brighton. 2 bed ground floor 70m2, 1 bed first floor 40m2 and 1 bed second (top) floor 43m2.  I will be letting the finished units so I am looking for low maintenance.

 

 

Just checking you are aware of the VAT issue if you let them out...

 

https://www.isurv.com/info/390/features/11494/taxation_vat_costs_of_building_to_rent

 

 

Quote

The basic VAT rules for property are as follows. The sale of new residential property is zero-rated for VAT. This means that the developer does not need to charge the purchaser VAT on the sale price, yet because the sale is within the scope of VAT – albeit being zero-rated – the developer can still recover the VAT it incurs on the majority of its own costs.

 

The letting of residential property is, however, exempt from VAT. This means that VAT need not be charged on the rents, but also that letting is outside the scope of VAT so the developer cannot recover any of the VAT it incurs on the development.

This therefore puts traditional housebuilders – that is, those building to sell – in a relatively advantageous position. Other than for some minor exceptions in relation to white goods, carpets and so on, the VAT that housebuilders incur on all costs is recoverable. This means that the VAT cost associated with the construction of new housing for sale is minimal.

However, that position drastically changes when a developer is building property to let, as there is potentially a considerable associated VAT cost. 
 

 

 

I think the solution is to sell the development to another company you own which then lets them out but best seek advice.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Temp

[Mr Punter]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

Storage heaters, size them correctly and they will last decades.

 

I looked at them briefly but concluded that the downside of more expensive normal rate electric plus lack of control over output may be a no-no.  I am probably prejudiced having experienced them 30 years ago.  Any idea how they perform in a small, well insulated flat?

 

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

Assuming a good water pressure, then maybe an inline heater, if pressure/flow is bad, then storage and a pump/accumulator.

If you can fit a vented system, then you have no certificates/annual checks needed.

 

Would that do a decent shower?  No problems with the incoming flow rate.  I would prefer no annual checks.

[Mr Punter]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

That is a tough decision.

 

In days gone by without hesitation I would say storage heaters.  That is a landlords friend, though a system few people actually like.

 

Heat pumps work well, but they have "niggles"  Mine has a habit of throwing a random error and needing resetting. They are slow to heat a tank of hot water.  I would be uneasy with them in a rental as you would need someone who truly understands them on hand, and might get a lot of "no hot water" complaints?

 

The real basic, simple (but not cheapest for bills) is electric panel heaters.  Can't beat them for simplicity and understanding, and I see an increasing number of rentals switching from storage heaters to panel heaters.

 

Would a 10kW shower satisfy the shower needs?  if so you only need a small water heater for the basin and kitchen sink.  Plenty of tenants manage on 8kW showers so a 10kW would be relative luxury.

 

I can see why you and @SteamyTea like the storage heaters but I may favour panel heaters.

 

With heat pumps, I did consider just split a/c units to do heating and cooling, rather than a full on air to water setup.

 

I have only used an old school electric shower gravity fed and it was woeful.  Would a 10kW unit be considered OK by tenants?  A 1 bed flat is about £850-£900 a month, so they want it to be reasonable.

[Mr Punter]

51 minutes ago, joth said:

Just to check this point, is your concern that qualified engineers, parts/replacements or even the delivery of gas itself will become difficult over time? I personally can't see that happening for many decades, as a nation we're so hooked on it, and it'll need a very very significant change in pricing to really retrofit folks off it. If they're paying people to move off it, you might as well go with it now and take the cash incentive when it's offered. (Plus, there is still the slim possibility we'll see CO2 near-neutral gas someday and there'll be no need to do any of this)

Obviously if you preference is driven by deeper ideological basis around this point then fair enough (and I'm with you).

 

For low maintenance at a fixed (low) capital investment, and with an eye to minimizing emissions, I'd say put all the £  you can into upgrading insulation, airtightness, reducing the need for heating of any sort, and then go with the very best value for money combi boiler deal you can find.

(As a landlord I found a system boiler a nightmare as our tenants couldn't understand a timer switch and had repeated emergency call outs to adjust it.  We fitted a combi boiler and never had another issue)

 

Just my 2p worth.

 

My concerns about gas are the extra hassle and cost of installation, fire safety and environmental but your points are well considered.

 

I would not, in any case, have a system boiler in such a small flat but a combi is very tempting.  Hmm...

[Mr Punter]

46 minutes ago, Temp said:

 

Just checking you are aware of the VAT issue if you let them out...

 

https://www.isurv.com/info/390/features/11494/taxation_vat_costs_of_building_to_rent

 

 

I think the solution is to sell the development to another company you own which then lets them out but best seek advice.

 

Thanks.  Yes I was aware of this. The land is being purchased by a subsidiary company.  I am not sure of how it works - I leave it to the Beanies.

[SteamyTea]

31 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Any idea how they perform in a small, well insulated flat?

Modern ones are very controllable. They have timers and good air temperature monitoring.

Panel heaters are alright, and just like a storage heater, or any type of heater, they need to be sized correctly.

The largest expense is going to be DHW. Do you really want your tenants paying standard rate for that.

20 minutes @ 10 kW is around 60p a day. About double what I pay on E7.

[Temp]

This site is out of date (Oct 2019) but it's the best/only one I know for comparing the cost of different fuels. 

 

https://nottenergy.com/resources/energy-cost-comparison/

 

See "Pence per kWh (after boiler efficiency)" column in the table.

 

Note that electricity is (was) 4-5 times the cost of mains gas per kWh unless you use an ASHP or take advantage of a off peak electricity deal of some sort. That's the appeal of storage heaters compared to regular panel heaters.

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Temp

[SteamyTea]

Some PV power can easily be diverted to them, and the DHW store.

[Mr Punter]

With that kind of price difference it is very difficult not to go gas combi.

[Mr Punter]

2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Some PV power can easily be diverted to them, and the DHW store.

 

The issue I have with the PV is that if I split it between the flats it is extra cost.  I can (I think) just have it all to one connection.

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

  I can (I think) just have it all to one connection.

Are the flats on separate meters (probably best) or sub meters (better for you, not so good for tenants).

 

You may be better off just pumping it into one flat.

[Mr Punter]

4 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Are the flats on separate meters (probably best) or sub meters (better for you, not so good for tenants).

 

You may be better off just pumping it into one flat.

 

Yes one supply per flat, but I agree it may be best for just one to have the PV.  I don't think it harms the SAP calcs for the block.

[SteamyTea]

5 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

Yes one supply per flat, but I agree it may be best for just one to have the PV.

Put it into the largest, or coldest one.

[Nickfromwales]

Why the PV? Do you provide the gas / electricity in with the rent or does each flat have a meter and the tenants pay as they go? Norm is pre pay meters so you’re never in the red. 
It has to be gas for fit and forget value alone. If they’re flats then you don’t want to waste m2 with tanks / SA’s etc, so whack some reliable combis in. Ideal are great for the money, at change of £650, and sleep at night. Renters can be creatures of hugely differing habits, so storage heaters are quite a naff choice for rentals imo.
Kerb appeal is important so avoid an all electric rental afaic as that just screams “expensive to run”. 
Maybe ditch the PV and use the money to buy the boilers and run the gas supplies  

[Mr Punter]

24 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Why the PV? Do you provide the gas / electricity in with the rent or does each flat have a meter and the tenants pay as they go? Norm is pre pay meters so you’re never in the red. 
It has to be gas for fit and forget value alone. If they’re flats then you don’t want to waste m2 with tanks / SA’s etc, so whack some reliable combis in. Ideal are great for the money, at change of £650, and sleep at night. Renters can be creatures of hugely differing habits, so storage heaters are quite a naff choice for rentals imo.
Kerb appeal is important so avoid an all electric rental afaic as that just screams “expensive to run”. 
Maybe ditch the PV and use the money to buy the boilers and run the gas supplies  

 

Each flat to have their own meters.  The PV was to help with SAP calcs but I would happily ditch it if it still works out.

 

I just thought I would go with the decarbonise the grid and make Greta happy but the more I look at it the harder it is not to go with gas combi.

[Nickfromwales]

12 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

 

Each flat to have their own meters.  The PV was to help with SAP calcs but I would happily ditch it if it still works out.

 

I just thought I would go with the decarbonise the grid and make Greta happy but the more I look at it the harder it is not to go with gas combi.

Head vs heart  Right now, it’s “head time”....Save money and buy PV for your home instead, if you're in need a hug from the planet. 
It’s a shame this kind of choice is down to the general population though, rather than a government driven directive. IMHO every single house should have 2-4 PV panels on for low input, widespread mass injection into the grid. That wouldn’t please the fat cat big 6 so will still be a way off. Instead of the massive FIT payments making rich people richer, the money from that scheme should have gone towards that with the big 6 forced to take some of their grotesque profit margins and actually reinvest into the infrastructure, where necessary.

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

The PV was to help with SAP calcs but I would happily ditch it if it still works out.

Thinking a little outside he box here.  You could heat up one large cylinder with water, then feed off that to the 3 flats, via inline heaters.

Does depend on how the water is metered.

 

It is possible to fit PV on a roof at a lower cost that tiling, does depend on roof design.

 

You may also find that fitting a 4^th meter and exporting everything that get generated, while collective the 5p/kWh (or whatever you can negotiate) is a better way.

 

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

It’s a shame this kind of choice is down to the general population though, rather than a government driven directive.

I think you will find that the 'government' is doing more that you think.

Also a lot cheaper to build a solar farm than get a few thousand panels fitted to new builds.

Really need to do both though, but people still think that PV is expensive, don't work well and will break down.

Edited June 25, 2020 by SteamyTea

[Mr Punter]

It just seems that anything other than the gas combis equals potential issues.

 

The large cylinder would need to be sited somewhere.  The flats will have their own water meters.  I need the option to sell individual flats, or I lose a lot of investment value.  As it is a flat roof there is no way that adding PV will be lower than waterproofing.

 

If I have to go the PV route I will probably do as you suggested earlier and put it into the largest flat.

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, Mr Punter said:

 

If I have to go the PV route I will probably do as you suggested earlier and put it into the largest flat.

Pretty pointless if it’s a gas burning dwelling tbh. Don’t forget the inverter will snuff it at 6-10 years and need replacing. It’ll take all of your export payments to cover that and put you back to zero. ?. 
Maybe consider a SA plus gas system boiler ( doing heating only ) for that flat if you do. 

[Mr Punter]

11 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Pretty pointless if it’s a gas burning dwelling tbh. Don’t forget the inverter will snuff it at 6-10 years and need replacing. It’ll take all of your export payments to cover that and put you back to zero. ?. 
Maybe consider a SA plus gas system boiler ( doing heating only ) for that flat if you do. 

 

Agreed. With gas boiler I would only have PV if the SAP says so.

[joth]

2 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

I just thought I would go with the decarbonise the grid and make Greta happy but the more I look at it the harder it is not to go with gas combi.

 

I'll say it once more: put any spare £ you want for hugs from planet earth into insulation. That stuff is hard to retrofit, especially underfloor. This will reduce heating (and cooling) requirements at zero incremental cost over time.

Systems changes, PV or ASHP or whatever, can be retrofitted far more easily as/when that becomes economic. But if you've already reduced the total energy demand, it matters far far less where that energy is coming from.

 

To reappropriate the physical wastage slogan for energy efficiency, the priority order should be 

1/ Reduce energy requirements (i.e. add insulation),

2/ reuse energy (i.e. increase airtightness and use heat-recovery ventilation),

3/ recycle energy (more accurately upcycle energy: convert low grade energy to higher value, e.g. via PV or ASHP).

 

SAP seems to encourage everyone to think about #3 without doing #1 and #2 first.

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by joth