Oil boiler.

[Russell griffiths]

Tell me why I shouldn’t use an oil boiler to provide hot water and heat the underfloor heating. 

 

I like to play devils advocate sometimes, to try and stir up a bit of a reaction. So let’s get this nasty fossil fuled discussion going. 

 

Why would it be be a bad idea to run a modern well insulated very airtight house from an oil boiler. 

 

C,mon let’s get to it. 

 

?‍♂️?‍♂️ ?? ☠️☠️??

Edited March 22, 2020 by Russell griffiths

[nod]

20 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

Tell me why I shouldn’t use an oil boiler to provide hot water and heat the underfloor heating. 

 

I like to play devils advocate sometimes, to try and stir up a bit of a reaction. So let’s get this nasty fossil fuled discussion going. 

 

Why would it be be a bad idea to run a modern well insulated very airtight house from an oil boiler. 

 

C,mon let’s get to it. 

 

?‍♂️?‍♂️ ?? ☠️☠️??

Look forward to the replies as this will effect our next build 

[ProDave]

What does it do you your SAP score and EPC rating?

 

I expect for the life of the boiler you will continue to be able to buy fuel for it but who knows at what price?  It's rock bottom at the moment so buy a big tank.

 

In 20 years when it needs replacing, you probably won't be able to buy one.  so do you want to plan ahead or be prepared for big changes when that day comes (quite probably a new HW tank as a minimum)

 

What have you against something more modern like an ASHP?

 

Have you REALLY costed the difference between an oil boiler and an ASHP?  Don't forget to include the cost of the oil tank and installation of the boiler (or at least paying an OFTEC engineer to comission it to validate the warranty, even if you self install it)

[Alexphd1]

On the plus side of a oil boiler

1. 99% of repair parts are of the shelf same or next working day (I can buy a compete new burner for less than £300 which will replace 95% of a parts in a oil boiler)

2. plenty of competent engineers to install and fix

3. I can get a Manufacturer engineer out usually next working day to fix under warranty (not sure how strict they enforce being commissioned by a oftec engineer but I dont know how quick ashp manufacture would put a engineer to a self install?)

4.oil boiler and oil tank still cheaper than ASHP (from normal supply chain not considering ebay etc)

5. do not get less efficient when you need them most.

6. oil price can go down

7. less "F"ing about trying to get into sweet spot for efficiency

 

negative side

1. oil price can go up

2. fuel can get stolen

3. have seen a few tanks burst

4. can be smelly so keep them out of main house

5. dirt in fuel can be a nightmare

6. will some of the manufacturers be around in 10 years for warranty work?

 

 

we can change our heating system from ASHP to oil to LPG to direct electric without changing the HW tank so I do not really see that as a problem. 

Edited March 22, 2020 by Alexphd1

[Russell griffiths]

@ProDave

 trying to think how to answer all the points you mention

so let’s try something silly that is completely relevant to me. 

 

I own an old Izuzu truck, 3ltr turbo diesel with an extra chip in it. It does absolutely sod all to the gallon, every journey I do is like a tenner here or 20 quid there. But I own it outright doesn’t owe me a penny, so do I buy a fancy new van that does probably 3 times as many miles to the gallon and is a third of the road tax per year, sounds obvious go and get one, but it will cost £25,000

so I’m down £25,000 but I don’t spend as much on diesel or tax. 

 

Why am I comparing this to how I heat my house. 

 

When we knocked the old place down we had the year before fitted a brand new oil boiler, so I actually have one sat here in storage, I also have a tank, so all I need is some pipe a filter and we’re in business.  

 

I dont have anything against a modern ashp, I’m just trying to work out the cost to install versus what I have. 

 

In 20 years time will I be able to replace it ?? I have no idea, but I would say that 99% of my village are on oil, do you think the government will be able to phase them out so every single household will have had to replace their heating system by then. 

I very much doubt it, no gas in new builds I can see obviously, but 150 houses in one small village having to all go over to ASHP in draughty old cottages I cannot see how they could implement that, like asking people to stop burning wet wood, never going to happen. 

 

Have i costed this out against an ashp,  

very very roughly, but would like to do this hence my other post about ashp. 

 

Maybe we can mix the two posts together and do a cost comparison. 

 

Thanks for your input, let’s see if we get anymore input later. 

[Alexphd1]

I would like to stress how important to get your heating/energy demand down as much as possible with the fabric first approach. I would be interested to hear from anybody who has used a little 12kw system oil boiler on to a good spec'd house. I went down the ASHP route but time well tell if it was the rite route!

[ProDave]

If I had the 1 year old boiler I think I would be using it.  I presume you have a tank as well?

[Alexphd1]

I would use the oil boiler aswell. 

[Russell griffiths]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

If I had the 1 year old boiler I think I would be using it.  I presume you have a tank as well?

It’s 3-4 years old now but had only been in the house a year before we flattened it, yes I have a tank. 

 

See ive converted you to my thought pattern, that didn’t take long. 

 

Im wondering if I can get a hw tank that will work with both oil and ashp, if the oil boiler lasts 5-6-7;years and goes kaboom, I then switch to ASHP maybe in 5 years time they will be even better than now, this could save me a couple of quid in the short term so I can finish the house. 

 

I think we need to do this cost comparison. 

[Russell griffiths]

8 minutes ago, Alexphd1 said:

I would like to stress how important to get your heating/energy demand down as much as possible with the fabric first approach. I would be interested to hear from anybody who has used a little 12kw system oil boiler on to a good spec'd house. I went down the ASHP route but time well tell if it was the rite route!

I would like to see how it would work as well 

we believe we have built a good house, not as highly insulated as some people but we think very good, with a high degree of detail for airtightness. 

So the house we knocked down was cold draughty and very poorly built, the oil boiler would have been working it’s little socks off trying to keep it warm, but the new place will require less heat input. So will it just tick over and use less oil instead of sucking on it like a fat kid with a milkshake, would the oil consumption just be a dribble compared to my diesel bill for my truck. 

[Simplysimon]

7 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

I think we need to do this cost comparison.

not much of a comparison when you own one of the items you are comparing the costs of. no brainer really, oil

[Russell griffiths]

6 minutes ago, Simplysimon said:

not much of a comparison when you own one of the items you are comparing the costs of. no brainer really, oil

Not sure, need to write it all down, there are other small costs that could add up. 

[Alexphd1]

Maybe of a interest but most oil boiler can be detuned a few KW by putting in a new smaller oil nozzle and setting up the oil pressure and air to the new manufacturers spec, half hour work for somebody who knows what they are doing.

[Russell griffiths]

@Alexphd1 what sort of tank do you have that will except different types of heating source. 

[Alexphd1]

We have a thermal store with a bigger dhw coil for running at lower temps also running the UFH from this tank. We have 5kw of PV, 8m2 of ST and a log gasification boiler all going into this and pre heater tank. All bit of trial and error tbh.

Nothing stopping you fit a tank that's suitable for a heat pump and running it from the oil boiler.

[ProDave]

35 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

IIm wondering if I can get a hw tank that will work with both oil and ashp, if the oil boiler lasts 5-6-7;years and goes kaboom, I then switch to ASHP maybe in 5 years time they will be even better than now, this could save me a couple of quid in the short term so I can finish the house. 

 

I think we need to do this cost comparison. 

Get a larger tank than you think you need with a high capacity heat pump input coil. That will still work fine with the oil boiler.

 

Plumb the system with two 2 port valves, one for heating, one for HW, that will be easier to convert to an ASHP later.  Avoid the work of the devil the 3 port mid position valve.

[ProDave]

10 minutes ago, Alexphd1 said:

We have a thermal store with a bigger dhw coil for running at lower temps also running the UFH from this tank. We have 5kw of PV, 8m2 of ST and a log gasification boiler all going into this and pre heater tank. All bit of trial and error tbh.

Nothing stopping you fit a tank that's suitable for a heat pump and running it from the oil boiler.

A thermal store is a very bad choice for an ASHP as generally you have to store the water in the tank quite a bit hotter than your target HW delivery temperature.

[Alexphd1]

Yeah that's the big compromise with our system but it was the best way to link the system together inc the log gasification. If only ashp then we would have just had a UVC.