Amtico - but not under cabinets

[Carrerahill]

We are going to put Amtico in our kitchen. About 30 years ago my parents had Amtico installed in their kitchen, in those days you called up Amtico and they designed it all (borders etc.) and sent people to install it, so it was an Amtico led job and therefore their guys (or approved installers whatever they were). What they did was lay cheap blue tiles of the same thickness as the Amtico under the kitchen cabinets and appliances, makes sense to me, my parents have quite a long cumulative length of kitchen cabinets/appliances so it would have been costly and wasteful to install the good stuff under them.

 

I am thinking of doing the same thing, I have spoken to some installers and suppliers today and they seem perplexed by this idea. For me it makes a difference of around £500.00 if I use the Amtico under cabinets or use something like this: https://lifestyleflooringuk.co.uk/malmo-stick-down-skara

 

If I use that stuff I can effectively floor the whole kitchen from wall to wall but with that stuff starting around 100mm in from the plinths.

 

Has anyone else seen this done? What other options could I go for - I had contemplated having the Amtico laid short of the walls where cabinets will go, then before the kitchen goes in pour in some self levelling compound or such to build the area up and create a wall to wall floor covering. I could even use one of the resin types. Or do I just leave those areas of the floor raw ply and give it a coat of varnish to protect from any spills or small floors etc.

 

 

 

 

[Mr Punter]

LVT flooring is only a couple of mm thick.  Just lay it under the dishwasher, sink, washing machine and leave the other bits as bare ply.  I like to mastic round like a dam so if anything leaks it will appear from under the plinth.

[Carrerahill]

9 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

LVT flooring is only a couple of mm thick.  Just lay it under the dishwasher, sink, washing machine and leave the other bits as bare ply.  I like to mastic round like a dam so if anything leaks it will appear from under the plinth.

Yes this stuff is 3mm I think, I was just more concerned about under the WM and DW (pulling it forward and damaging the first row).

 

I have however just done a wastage calc and with the stuff left over I can floor right into the WM/DW bays (albeit integrated DW it may still need to come out in the future!).

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

 

[MikeGrahamT21]

1 hour ago, Carrerahill said:

Yes this stuff is 3mm I think, I was just more concerned about under the WM and DW (pulling it forward and damaging the first row).

 

I have however just done a wastage calc and with the stuff left over I can floor right into the WM/DW bays (albeit integrated DW it may still need to come out in the future!).

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

 

Get a plastic slider board for your DW and WM!

[AliG]

I would say that the normal thing to do is have it fitted into the WM and DW area(Assuming that they aren't there when it is fitted) and fitted short under the cabinets , people don't generally worry about what happens to the floor under the cabinets, in most kitchens it is just bare chipboard. It is unlikely to get wet enough to worry about it. They did this in my last house and only laid the ply up to the kitchen cabinet feet (or level up to there if the floor is concrete). I bought it from a builder so the kitchen was already fitted before the Amtico was installed. You only really need to worry where you have an item that you might need to take in and out, so a washing machine mainly, followed by DW and fridge freezer. It makes it easier to get them out if they need repaired. If you ply the whole floor or it is concrete then they will bump over the Amtico easily and it will not lift at the edge, the adhesive will run out under the unfinished edge probably and is very solid.

 

Amtico itself ranges from £20-45 per square metre ex VAT. You can then probably add £30 a square metre for fitting including the cost of ply or levelling compound. So if you want the whole floor covered in ply or levelled you won't save the full per metre cost, maybe only half of it depending on the style of Amtico you have chosen. You shouldn't be paying more than £50-75 a metre ex VAT depending on the style including fitting.

 

[Carrerahill]

I have solved this.

 

So this is where I am:

 

12mm exterior grade hardwood core ply laid, it is flat, seriously flat, really happy with it, and I was tempted just to varnish it and be done as it looks nice too!

 

The only bit that needs a little tweak is where I got a little carried away with my router blade depth when removing a 150mm x 900mm x err 5mm section to run the sheet right up to the back door and over the 2x6 floor plate which the door partially sits on I intentionally set it 5mm higher than the sub-floor level so when I ply lined the floor, assuming 5mm ply, it would come in at the same level, but I had no reason to think, back then, that I was going to need to find 14mm so my fridge cabinet sat at the same height as the wall cabinets, easiest solution was to raise the whole floor level 14mm - so taking into account my flooring and the ply I needed min 11.5mm - so 12m ply it was!

 

Anyway, I must have leaned a little heavily on the router or something and ended up maybe taking 7mm - result is that the bit that slides over the 2x6 was flappy! So I just poured in PVA, trowelled it out, put the ply down and screwed it down, it is going nowhere, but it has created a 2mm dip to the door, not to worry I have 4Kg of F Ball Feather Edge compound on its way, might even arrive today - I will also do the screw heads with this.

 

I have Ardex flooring adhesive coming too and an A2 trowel.

 

The actual Amtico will be here tomorrow too, we went for their mid-rage the "Form" and the friendly chap also found me some discontinued 2.5mm stuff in the back of the warehouse I could have for £10 p/m to go under cabinets.

 

So the plan is to mark out the kitchen cabinet layout on the floor plus say 30mm saftey margin, ping a central line across the floor and start with an Amtico "plank" either side and work my way out, once over the cabinet line I can stop and finish it in the cheap stuff.

 

The stuff I went for is 235mm x 1505mm so it should look smart with the large format planks, we have 225mm Oak in the living room and hall and it looks brilliant, I have never had so many comments about a feature of a house in all my life!

 

I have spent hours and hours and hours researching and coming up with a strategy, sitting on flooring forums and talking to suppliers and even fitters - in the end I have come to the conclusion that it is just sticking some bits of plastic to a floor and as the prep is excellent, although really the prep wasn't hard because I built my floors blinking level, it will be fine! If I can build an extension I can lay some Amtico.

 

I think Amtico installers just like to make out that their skill is far more advanced than it maybe is, I also was given horror stories when I decided to lay my Oak, apparently it was all going to warp and buckle and the whole lot would need ripped up. I think much of the horror story stuff is from poor prep, not dealing with the sub-floor properly, particularly where concrete and screeds are involved and using incorrect adhesives. 

 

I think the skill in Amtico is laying out borders or putting motifs into the floor but at that, it is just a keen eye and careful cutting.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Carrerahill
Typed 6mm instead of 5mm + additional detail.

[Big Jimbo]

You are right Carrerahill. I have laid tons of Karndean over the years, and never had a problem. Post some pics when you are done, so we can all admire.

[Carrerahill]

2 hours ago, Big Jimbo said:

You are right Carrerahill. I have laid tons of Karndean over the years, and never had a problem. Post some pics when you are done, so we can all admire.

I will do.

 

I'll probably make a start on Sunday.

 

 

[Carrerahill]

2 hours ago, Big Jimbo said:

You are right Carrerahill. I have laid tons of Karndean over the years, and never had a problem. Post some pics when you are done, so we can all admire.

Any tips or tricks?

 

Did you roll it?

[Big Jimbo]

2 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

Any tips or tricks?

 

Did you roll it?

Yes i do roll it.

Don't use too much glue, and wipe up any that squezes through with a damp cloth. (Have a cloth in a bucket of water.)

I usually lay 3 rows at a time.

I will cut, and dry lay the three rows, mark the edge with a pencil, lift the boards back towards you as a stack. Lay down the glue, using the pencil line as a guide.

Picking the boards from the top of the stack, lay, roll, and wipe.

The last one i did was 60sq meters including 4 door ways, and it took me 2.5 days.

Have fun.

Re the glue. Don't use too much. The first time i layed it, i did, and it slides around like a pig, and takes forever to dry.

[Oz07]

Following with interest

[Carrerahill]

OK - I made a start. 12mm Hardwood core external grade ply was finished last weekend. 

 

I screwed it down on a grid, 8x12" in the field and 6" on edges, this resulted in a very smooth level floor (floor deck was level anyway).

 

I then used F-Ball Stopgap to fill the screw heads and also to feather a section of the ply that differed in height by about 0.5mm - as I had the stuff I ended up just feathering the whole joint, took the finest of skim and that's me happy it is damn flat and level and these variations and marks cannot telegraph up through the Amtico.

 

I then snapped lines to work out where cabinets would be and the centre line, I was going to butt a piece up to either side of the centre line but after a little test layout I discovered I would be better centring a piece on the centre line as that would save me awkward slither cuts. 

 

I even sanded the F-Ball just to get it super smooth, I then vacuumed it all. 

 

Edited March 16, 2020 by Carrerahill
Typo.

[Carrerahill]

Well that is the Amtico part of the floor down, it looks great, I am very happy with it and considering it is my first DIY Amtico adventure I am quite pleased with myself. I now need to do the cheaper stuff around the perimeter which will be under the cabinets.

 

I do have some photos but don't have the time to email them over and what not, I will soon.

 

So in summary, Amtico is very much a DIY job unless you are going for a complex floor with motifs etc, where maybe I'd not want to risk it, although, if I had plenty spare lengths I might risk it... I would be happy to lay a border with what I now know.

 

So, if you are thinking about it - go for it! 

 

I used Ardex Universal adhesive spread with an A2 notched trowel, I used a Marshaltown 4 inch jointing knife to scoop it out the tub and generally spread about the place before hitting the whole area with the notched trowel until I had 100% coverage but notched sized lines so there was room for it to squeeze out into the troughs and not so much adhesive the flooring just starts to slide about. 

 

I'd do it again in another room tomorrow, as with most jobs, the time is in the prep, the flooring actually goes down very fast and cuts very easily - if I was doing it again I'd setup a workbench with a "cutting station" on it. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Carrerahill

[SuperJohnG]

@Carrerahill any update on pics for this interested in having a wee look to see how it turned out.

 

I'm going through flooring options at the moment and Amtico has some really nice options. 

[Carrerahill]

@SuperJohnG thanks for the reminder, sort of forgot about this post.

 

Here are some photos, you can see where I went from the Amtico to the Vusta stuff for under cabinets, I am glad that I did it this way.

 

[SuperJohnG]

@Carrerahill

 

thanks, and looks a good transition.

 

I'm just at the moment trying to price and see the cost vs benefits between Amtioc/ Tiles/ engineered wood.

[Carrerahill]

12 minutes ago, SuperJohnG said:

@Carrerahill

 

thanks, and looks a good transition.

 

I'm just at the moment trying to price and see the cost vs benefits between Amtioc/ Tiles/ engineered wood.

I'd say for me as it going into a kitchen it was going to be Amtico or tiles, I went for Amtico as I felt confident, after research, DIYing it, I also have experience of living with Amtico flooring and thought it would be a good option as it is never as cold as tile and dropped glasses and plates stand a chance of survival, being able to do it DIY was a big factor too. Of course I know you can DIY tiles but I couldn't really be bothered with the hassle.

 

I choose tradesmen very carefully and when it comes to letting them into my house the bar is raised even higher - I don't have any flooring contractors on my speed dial and the monkey I did phone for a quote put me off so badly that I didn't even try a second. My mind was made up right then and there that I was doing it myself. I opted for a fairly expensive Amtico product on the basis labour was free so I think in the end I got a better floor.

 

Amtico installation difficultly is one of these myths spread by the installers themselves. If you really think about it, it is gluing bits of plastic to the floor! After 2 attempts I was even able to cut and bevel the edges for that clean lines you will see at the transition from Amtico to Vusta on the plank ends, this is the same skill required where doing Amtico with borders etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SuperJohnG]

1 hour ago, Carrerahill said:

I'd say for me as it going into a kitchen it was going to be Amtico or tiles, I went for Amtico as I felt confident, after research, DIYing it, I also have experience of living with Amtico flooring and thought it would be a good option as it is never as cold as tile and dropped glasses and plates stand a chance of survival, being able to do it DIY was a big factor too. Of course I know you can DIY tiles but I couldn't really be bothered with the hassle.

 

I choose tradesmen very carefully and when it comes to letting them into my house the bar is raised even higher - I don't have any flooring contractors on my speed dial and the monkey I did phone for a quote put me off so badly that I didn't even try a second. My mind was made up right then and there that I was doing it myself. I opted for a fairly expensive Amtico product on the basis labour was free so I think in the end I got a better floor.

 

Amtico installation difficultly is one of these myths spread by the installers themselves. If you really think about it, it is gluing bits of plastic to the floor! After 2 attempts I was even able to cut and bevel the edges for that clean lines you will see at the transition from Amtico to Vusta on the plank ends, this is the same skill required where doing Amtico with borders etc.

 

 

Thanks @Carrerahill I think what drew me to it was it looks like tiles/ engineered wood but you can do these nice patterns but the joins are tiny? is that correct? 

 

see image attached, I believe this is eden oak. 

Edited April 20, 2020 by SuperJohnG

[Carrerahill]

17 hours ago, SuperJohnG said:

 

Thanks @Carrerahill I think what drew me to it was it looks like tiles/ engineered wood but you can do these nice patterns but the joins are tiny? is that correct? 

 

see image attached, I believe this is eden oak. 

Yes correct, the pieces are made to very fine tolerances, when you push two pieces together the gap is very small, in essence there is no gap, just a joint line which if done well will be very tight. 

 

If you look at the above then you will note the herringbone layout abuts a border, so this will require good clean straight cuts. If you need to cut a plank/tile that abuts a border or something then you need to make a perfectly straight and square cut, I used a combination of a 6 inch speed square, a steel rule and a Stanley knife with a brand new blade. Where the joint is going to be on show, such as at a border, you then bevel the edge to factory edge finish (assuming your product has this) by literally shaving a tiny slither off the top edge of the wearing surface with a small, sharp plane. I didn't really need to do this as although I had cut edges of the Amtico abutting factory edges of the cheaper Vusta stuff I didn't care about the bevel, but I did do a couple just to try it. The joint is perfectly straight and tight (look at the top picture that shows an Amtico cut piece abutting a Vusta factory edge).

 

I pinged a line down the middle of my kitchen and worked out my ideal layout to minimise waste, I then started from the middle of the room and laid 1 full piece, I then worked out how much I would need to cut off the last plank in that run and made that cut and started the second row with this off-cut (my cut line to the wall), I the worked out what size the last piece of the second row would be and made that cut and put that off-cut in as the third row. The result was 3 starter pieces down in a nice staggered arrangement. I then left that over night to set. 

 

The result was on day 2 I was able to crack on with the rest and really push the pieces together hard knowing that the first 3 pieces wouldn't move. If you have 2-3 pieces set up and you push the last piece in tight the whole lot will move slightly so you need to work to something solid to get tight joins. I could have fixed a square cornered batten to the floor and screwed that down and done one side of the room to that batten but I was in no hurry to hit it in one go. 

 

I wonder if the pro's use a batten or a couple of panel pins knocked in as "stops" for the first pieces. 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Carrerahill