selvbygg Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Does anybody have any experience of ASHP from Cool Energy? I became aware of them last week when I visited the Sunamp factory and after looking at the Cool Energy site they seem to be considerably cheaper than a lot of their competitors. I was told at the time that they were not accredited by a scheme that allows you to claim RHI but as it is likely to be included in a smallish house I don't think the RHI payments would amount to much. I know very little about ASHPs so do they vary in performance and efficiency and if so do the Cool Energy units compare favourably and are they reliable? Any advice or recommendations welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 As they just buy in HPs, ask them what make/s they are installing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 I will be installing one soon, if you can wait, I will give an opinion when I have done so. The cheapest range they di is not inverter driven. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oranjeboom Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 7 hours ago, ProDave said: I will be installing one soon, if you can wait, I will give an opinion when I have done so. The cheapest range they di is not inverter driven. Be interested in knowing which model you're looking at. Presume you're self installing? Looking to potentially do the same as fed up with the RHI-premium installers slap on which simply don't stack up. 7 hours ago, selvbygg said: I became aware of them last week when I visited the Sunamp factory Were these ASHP's amongst the units they are testing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 6 minutes ago, oranjeboom said: Be interested in knowing which model you're looking at. Presume you're self installing? Looking to potentially do the same as fed up with the RHI-premium installers slap on which simply don't stack up. No installing for a friend (our plasterer) who is building a house on a budget. All I know for sure is it is their cheapest range, 8kW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oranjeboom Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 On 20/01/2020 at 21:32, ProDave said: No installing for a friend (our plasterer) who is building a house on a budget. All I know for sure is it is their cheapest range, 8kW Pls let us know how that goes as these units have come up a few times in discussions on here. Only 1yr parts warranty on these I see! At least all inverter driven now. https://coolenergyshop.com/products/cool-energy-inverter-6-18-7kw-stainless-heat-pump-ce-ih6-18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 They still do the non inverter ones. I believe this is the one he is planning to buy https://coolenergyshop.com/collections/pro-range-heat-pumps/products/cool-energy-pro-range-8-41kw-stainless-heat-pump-model-ce-h8 It's hard justifying to him why he should spend £1000 more to have an inverter driven one. Just because they are a bit more refined is a hard argument to justify an extra £1000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 Why don't they give any COP data in their specification sheets? It's pretty clear that they look to be very much like are imported Chinese-made units, albeit fitted with a Mitsubishi compressor unit. Looking at the spec linked to above, for the inverter controlled unit, then it's possible to have a guess at some COP figures: Rated Capacity @35°C Water/ 20°C Ambient 17.0kw Rated Capacity @35°C Water/ 7°C Ambient 13.6kw Rated Capacity @45°C Water/ 20°C Ambient 14.9kw Rated Capacity @45°C Water/ 7°C Ambient 13.0kw Rated Capacity @7°C Water/ 25°C Ambient 9.9kw We can either assume that the above performance is using the rated power input, or that it's using the max power input: Rated Power Input 3.9kw/18.5A Max Power Input 4.7kw/21.3A Converting the performance figures to COP using the rated power input gives (I've highlighted the most meaningful ones, heating and hot water in cool conditions - they don't give any cold weather performance data): COP for A20/W35 = 4.36 COP for A7/W35 = 3.49 COP for A20/W45 = 3.82 COP for A7/W45 = 3.33 COP for A25/W7 (cooling mode) = 2.54 Converting the performance figures to COP using the max power input gives (same highlights as above): COP for A20/W35 = 3.62 COP for A7/W35 = 2.89 COP for A20/W45 = 3.17 COP for A7/W45 = 2.77 COP for A25/W7 (cooling mode) = 2.11 For comparison, the performance data for a Mitsubishi Ecodan 14 kW inverter controlled ASHP is (and Mitsubishi make it clear that their data is based on the maximum input power): COP for A7/W35 = 3.87 COP for A3/W35 = 2.91 COP for A7/W55 = 3.12 So, why does a Mitsubishi ASHP, that uses the same compressor as the Cool Energy unit, perform so much better than the Cool Energy unit? The difference is marked, bearing in mind that the max input power should be used for the comparison. Taking the A7/W35 condition, then the Mitsubishi Ecodan uses about 2.584 kW to deliver 10 kW of heat, whilst the Cool Energy unit uses 3.46 kW to deliver the same 10 kW of heat, so for that condition would cost ~ 34% more to run. The same sort of difference seems to apply for other conditions, although as Cool Energy don't actually give performance figures for either relatively cold air (the 3°C condition) or hot water at 55°C, it's hard to make an exact comparison. The question really comes down to two things. How well supported will the Cool Energy unit be when compared to any of the big name brands? And, will the reduced purchase price make sense in the light of the significantly higher running cost? For a house that needs the sort of heating power output for a heat pump of this size, then I suspect that the increased running cost is likely to exceed the difference in purchase price before too long. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 So I have been having a conversation with Cool energy. My customer wants me to get all the wiring in place so he can finish plastering but he does not yet have the heat pump and tank. So I asked them the simple question, can I download the manuals? Their reply was the manuals come with the units. I have replied if they can't supply an electronic copy of the manuals, can they at least scan the pages that show the electrical connections and email them to me. Not the most helpful company to deal with....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billt Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 There seems to be a manual download link on the page that you linked to in your previous post! It's got various installation and wiring diagrams. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 32 minutes ago, billt said: There seems to be a manual download link on the page that you linked to in your previous post! It's got various installation and wiring diagrams. Senior moment, I missed that, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 I have started to look at this in more detail as I will be pre wiring for this Cool Energy ASHP verry soon. This is the wiring diagram from the downloaded manual: It looks VERY basic to me. In particular, the only actual connections to the heat pump appear to be power and a pair of wires labelled "interlock" These appear to me to be just a "call for heat" and seem to be the logical or of the hot water and heating valves plus thermostats. So as far as I can tell, the HP cannot tell if it is being asked to heat DHW or space heating. Which is strange as when you look through the parameter list, it has separate set temperatures for DHW and heating. And it is most definitely NOT an inverter driven heat pump. It will be interesting to see how it performs, but it would not be my choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 looks like it's using it's own programmer to do the flow temps based on times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Davies Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, dpmiller said: looks like it's using it's own programmer to do the flow temps based on times? So you have to synchronise the programmer's own timer with the main CH/DHW programmer or are the programmer/timer on the left of that diagram and the heat pump 24 hr remote programmer on the right the same thing? If the second that's a pretty misleading diagram. It's quite poor anyway: e.g, I'm only guessing but I doubt the cylinder stat, etc, are in the wiring centre. Edited February 4, 2020 by Ed Davies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 It does seem a pretty poor setup. But I can only see the one "interlock" (call for heat) connection so I can't see what else it can do. The default set temperature for heating is 55 degrees, same as the default set temperature for DHW so unless you change those it's immaterial The install I am about to do the customer is using radiators to heat the house so will want high temperature heating water anyway, so probably not a big issue. It would not exactly have been difficult when designing it, to give it two call for heat inputs, one for heating and one for DHW then it could easily run at 2 different temperatures. I would not be buying one of these for my own use. The more I look at that wiring diagram the more it puzzles me. I have never yet seen a cylinder thermostat that needs a L and N as well as com, no and nc. This one is going into a 3 bedroom semi detached house. It's near identical twin is having a Mitsubishi Ecodan heat pump and cylinder. It would be interesting to compare the heating bills between the two down the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Davies Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 42 minutes ago, ProDave said: But I can only see the one "interlock" (call for heat) connection so I can't see what else it can do. There's that dashed connection of some sort between the remote programmer and the heat pump itself. I'd assume that's representing a pre-wired multicore cable giving more nuanced control over the HP. If the two programmers on opposite sides of that diagram are actually the same thing then it's pretty easy for it to do all the temperature setting, etc. The “interlock” connection would then just be signalling to the HP that the zone valves have operated properly (or, at least, that one of them has). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 I think they're seperate. Looking at the menu for the non-inverter controller it does seem to have two temperatures but the timer programming bit doesn't allude to DHW and CH schedules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Davies Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 40 minutes ago, dpmiller said: I think they're seperate. Having read through the manual I think they're separate, too. 41 minutes ago, dpmiller said: Looking at the menu for the non-inverter controller it does seem to have two temperatures but the timer programming bit doesn't allude to DHW and CH schedules. Yes, that's a puzzle. I think there's some connection missing from the manual somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 I am just going to throw in a length of multicore control cable for now and see what connections the thing has when it arrives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gino Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 On 03/02/2020 at 18:49, ProDave said: I have started to look at this in more detail as I will be pre wiring for this Cool Energy ASHP verry soon. This is the wiring diagram from the downloaded manual: It looks VERY basic to me. In particular, the only actual connections to the heat pump appear to be power and a pair of wires labelled "interlock" These appear to me to be just a "call for heat" and seem to be the logical or of the hot water and heating valves plus thermostats. So as far as I can tell, the HP cannot tell if it is being asked to heat DHW or space heating. Which is strange as when you look through the parameter list, it has separate set temperatures for DHW and heating. And it is most definitely NOT an inverter driven heat pump. It will be interesting to see how it performs, but it would not be my choice. Is the interlock the direct link for a heatmiser uh4 boiler enable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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