Potential plot purchase road splays

[jened1]

Hi all, 

 

Looking to buy our first plot in the North of Scotland. There are 2 plots for sale with Planning in principle approved. One of the conditions is that a visibility splay is put in, cost to be shared between the 2,but I am not having much success in finding out how much this will cost. Planning told me to call roads, roads aren't calling me back. Any other ideas please? 

[Moonshine]

1 minute ago, jened1 said:

Hi all, 

 

Looking to buy our first plot in the North of Scotland. There are 2 plots for sale with Planning in principle approved. One of the conditions is that a visibility splay is put in, cost to be shared between the 2,but I am not having much success in finding out how much this will cost. Planning told me to call roads, roads aren't calling me back. Any other ideas please? 

 

The size of the splay will be dependent on the speed of the road and current visibility.

My local authority has guidance on it, but don't know how common it is, and applicable in Scotland.

[jened1]

Thank you, it says it has to be 2.4 x 90m but I have no idea how to cost that, google isn't helping much! 

[Ferdinand]

5 minutes ago, jened1 said:

Thank you, it says it has to be 2.4 x 90m but I have no idea how to cost that, google isn't helping much! 

 

You need to work out what you have to clear in order to make that splay visible from your driveway.

 

It may just be leaving enough space at the front edge.

 

Have a look at Manual for Streets, which explains hwo a visibility splay applies to a site.

 

Or you could ask for an answer as to what has to be done from the seller.

 

F

Edited November 26, 2019 by Ferdinand

[ProDave]

No 1, read the exact wording of the planning condition and understand it.  It might as well as specifying the size of the visibility splay, say something like "must demonstrate control over the land"  The EXACT wording is crucial.

 

Then go and look at the land armed with a long surveyors tape measure.  Measure it out on the ground.  Work out what needs to be done to make the visibility splay.  Trees cut down, fences / walls moved, bank needs excavating etc etc.  Only when you know what is involved can you get an idea.

 

Whoever does the work will need to be a contractor with a minor street works permit as they are working at the roadside.  Depending on the exact situation traffic control may be required.

 

What is the type and speed limit on the road? I am guessing national speed limit as they have specified 90 metres.

 

And  what could be the crucial part, who owns the land you need to make the visibility splay? are they happy for you to do the work? 

 

Do not complete on the purchase until you are SURE you can achieve this at a fair cost.

 

 

 

[jened1]

Thank you so much everyone, this is so helpful. The road near it is 30mph and another condition is that this needs to be extended. We will go have a good proper look/measure. 

[ProDave]

If the speed limit is only 30, then I would expect the visibility splay to be no more than 60 metres.  Look for other planning applications in the locality. If you can find another one that only calls for a 60 metre visibility splay you have a good case to get that condition varied and that might make it easier.

[Conor]

Don't assume that you will be able to achieve the splays. E.g. there could be something physical that you can't change or remove, e.g. a utility kiosk (unlikely). Or the splay area may extend into another plot of land, and do not assume that the land owner will be coorperative. Lastly there may be ecological reasons why you can't make the splay, protected species etc etc. These things are always more complicated than you think.

 

And is planning permission dependent on the 30mph zone being extended or did I misread that? 

[jened1]

Just having another look at the PIP. 

 

Re 30mph, it just says "move 30mph signs to here?" on the document called "site layout plan". Either side of the access gate says "remove vegetation/remove vegetation and set back fence" so who owns that vegetation I'm not sure. I *think* the seller owns it, as the vegetation seems to be enclosed by a massive blue line on the plan encircling plot 1 and plot 2.

 

Sorry, very new to all this! Had no idea what a visibility splay was a week ago! 

 

I will copy and paste the exact wording. 

[Conor]

Just now, jened1 said:

Just having another look at the PIP. 

 

Re 30mph, it just says "move 30mph signs to here?" on the document called "site layout plan". Either side of the access gate says "remove vegetation/remove vegetation and set back fence" so who owns that vegetation I'm not sure. I *think* the seller owns it, as the vegetation seems to be enclosed by a massive blue line on the plan encircling plot 1 and plot 2.

 

Sorry, very new to all this! Had no idea what a visibility splay was a week ago! 

 

I will copy and paste the exact wording. 

 

Extending the 30mph zone will be the responsibility of the high ways agency or local council. Good luck with that.

 

90% of the time, making a visibly splay is just clearing shrub, fences, etc and can be done in a day at the cost of a man and a digger. Will be up to both parties to maintain it so nothing grows over 250mm (or whatever the requirement is) in height.

 

If you are in an SSSI, AONB, conservation area etc, altering the road side environment may be more difficult that you expect. Our planning permission states that we CANNOT remove the roadside hedge at the front of our site, preventing us from improving visibility from the existing entrance.

[ProDave]

I would talk to your solicitor.

 

It would be a LOT simpler if you made it a condition of your purchase, that the VENDOR prepared the visability splays to the specification given in the planning before conclusion of the missives.

[jened1]

CONDITIONS & REASONS This permission is granted subject to the following conditions and reasons:

 

1. No development shall commence until all of the matters specified below have been approved on application to the Planning Authority:

i. a detailed layout of the site of the proposed development (including site levels as existing and proposed);

ii. the design and external appearance of the proposed development;

iii. landscaping proposals for the site of the proposed development (including boundary treatments);

iv. details of access and parking arrangements; and

v. details of the proposed water supply and drainage arrangements.

Reason: Planning permission is granted in principle only and these specified matters must be approved prior to development commencing.

 

Any details pursuant to condition 1 above shall show the site access located 30m from the existing access to (NAME OF THE EXISTING HOUSE WHICH ALIGNS ONE SIDE OF THE PLOT) and constructed in accordance with The Highland Council's Access to Single Houses and Small Housing Developments guidelines with:

i.                     the junction formed to comply with drawing ref. SDB2; and

ii.                   visibility splays of 87m to the west x 70m to the east (the X dimension and Y dimension respectively) formed from the centre line of the junction.

 

No other development shall commence until the junction has been constructed in full and within the stated visibility splays, at no time shall anything obscure visibility between a driver's eye height of 1.05m positioned at the X dimension and an object height of 0.60m anywhere along the Y dimension. Reason: To ensure that an adequate level of access is timeously provided for the development; in the interests of road safety and amenity.

 

[ProDave]

34 minutes ago, jened1 said:

 

v. details of the proposed water supply and drainage arrangements.

 

What details do you have of this?  This is as much, if not more of a show stopper if there is no solution.

 

Is mains water available?  If not what private source is proposed? Has it been tested?

 

What is proposed for drainage?  Have any percolation tests been done?

 

It it vital that a solution to these is found before you proceed.

[Ferdinand]

That is the best way ... make the vendor responsible.

 

(If it gets more complex, then we can go into that).

 

btw Manual For Streets is here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/341513/pdfmanforstreets.pdf

 

As one aside,  if they are requiring that the 30mph zone be extended beyond your new entrance, then they should perhaps not be arguing for a National Speed Limit linked visibility splay, 'cos there own requirement is 30 mph. And you could use the other condition to argue that they should be using a shorter splay - but making the vendor do it is easier.

 

(And if they can't do it, then you can reduce your offer if you think you can ?).

Edited November 26, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Jilly]

Not sure if it is the same as in England, but during our Planning Application, we had to liase with Highways about the visibility splays.They were happy our entrance has enough visibility, but we have to keep the splay clear etc. One condition is that we have to have a bespoke dropped kerb (yes, another application) even there is no footpath on our side, with all the drainage/surface info to be supplied etc Luckily highways own the verge, and we didn't have to purchase rights over it. The application was about £110 and the quote from their approved contractor is £4200 and it seems I can't negotiate a better price. Meanwhile, the local farmer removed the relevant section of hedge, removed some spoil, put a bit of hardcore and moved a gate for £400 as a temporary measure. 

The main thing is that your permission includes the entrance. Cost and details, you just have to suck your teeth (it seems to me!). Good luck.

[jened1]

Thanks very much everyone, so helpful. 

 

Re the water, says "services are believed to be nearby, purchasers will need to make their own enquiries regarding these." Maybe have bitten off more than we can chew.

 

If the vendor sorted it out that would be good, I guess it's a case of who wants the land and what funds they have if we'd have any leeway with getting them to do it. 

 

 

 

 

 

[ProDave]

Re Water, get in touch with Scottish Water straight away and request a quote for a new water supply. That will tell you exactly where the nearest water main is and the cost of connection.

 

Don't get put off, there is a lot of work in getting a bare plot up to speed and a lot of things to check.  I am not sure if you have made a formal offer yet, but if not, try to find a solicitor who is experienced in buying plots as he will know what is needed and what conditions to put in the offer to make sure it does not conclude until all hurdles have been crossed.

 

A little cheeky tip to save a bit on the ground works.  when I was preparing my site entrance I came across the fact that anyone working adjacent to the road needs to hold a minor street works permit.  BUT if there is a fence, then working inside the fence does not need that.

 

So I erected a very temporary fence right along the edge of the road and used my own digger to excavate and lay the MOT1 base for the road entrance.  Then when that was done I removed the fence and paid a contractor to lay the tarmac on the base I had prepared. 

[Ferdinand]

Self-build life is full of wrinkles like that.

 

Ferdinand

[jened1]

Thank you ProDave! No formal offer yet, is the perfect location, feels rural but very close to everything but we really didn't have an idea of exactly what was involved and are trying to see if our funds will work. 

[Ferdinand]

Is the road actually classified?

 

(My understanding of roads in *England* is that if it is unclassified, and there are no other hindrances such as others owning land in between, driveoverrights to acquire, change of height etc you can just create an entrance. May be worth a check if your road is unclassified.

 

I know this because when I was talking to the Council about drop kerbs in a town centre they expressed surprise that the 50m of road where my house was was not classified, and both ends were. But I may be overgeneralising the conclusion.) 

 

 

 

Ferdinand

Edited November 26, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Ed Davies]

18 minutes ago, jened1 said:

Re the water, says "services are believed to be nearby, purchasers will need to make their own enquiries regarding these."

 

When I went to speak to him the highways chap was very helpful about their requirements for doing my access. Their requirements were: a contractor with a minor works licence and appropriate third party insurance and needing to check with Openreach, SSE and Scottish Water that they don't have services there. My experience:

 

SSE were great, they emailed a PDF map of their services in the area the morning after I sent an enquiry.

 

Openreach took a week or two to get somebody up from Inverness with a metal detector thing to check their cable really was buried on the other side of the road. I was there for that survey and had a good chat with the chap about the options for getting a cable to my site.

 

Going via the official channels on their web site Scottish Water were an expensive pain. So I went to their local offices and had a chat with an engineer who brought up their maps on his computer, confirmed that they didn't have any pipes immediately affecting my land or its entrance. We also discussed what would be involved in getting water to my house if I wanted it (I don't) or the other plot I have (which somebody might want water for).

 

Moral of the tale, it's worth going to talk to a) highways, b) Scottish Water.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Ed Davies

[ProDave]

@jened1 if you get as far as making a formal offer, I can give you the details of the solicitor we used in Inverness who seems to be knowledgable about buying building plots and certainly found a few wrinkles to check that I hadn't thought of.  I can give you the details by PM if interested.

[jened1]

53 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Is the road actually classified?

I'm not sure, sorry! It's a lane connecting 2 other roads, single track. 

 

Thank you for the info on SSE/water/highways, got a few phone calls to make! Much appreciated. 

 

Many thanks ProDave, I would appreciate that. I think in my head I think land sells as fast as houses do but everyone else will be needing to do these checks too. 

[Ferdinand]

14 minutes ago, jened1 said:

I think land sells as fast as houses do

 

Dangerous thing to say to @ProDave ? 

 

@jened1

 

Just go with a good set of plans and photos and use the pointers from this thread to make sure you cover the aspects you are aware of, and even if it seems complex you will learn a lot for the next step.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Ferdinand

[jened1]

Definitely a steep learning curve!