Tepeo Heat Batteries

[MrMagic]

Was randomly trawling t'internet and came across https://tepeo.com/ - linked via Octopus energy so seems to have some credibility.

 

The website is a little devoid on detail but it seems to be using storage heater 'type' technology for energy storage, resistive heating for charging. Interesting claims around storing >40kWh of heat energy and with a higher energy density than PCM storage.

 

I've dropped them an e-mail to find out more but would be interested to hear if anyone else has been in contact with them.

 

MM.

[SteamyTea]

So is it a storage heater then.

The FFR worries me.

"Each device communicates over the internet to a IoT platform where they can be aggregated into a giant Virtual Battery or Virtual Power Plant"

Locks it into the whims of others.

[MrMagic]

Indeed it's a shame that for anything to be 'sexy' these days it has to have a cloud attached... fingers crossed local APIs will be provided so it doesn't end up being dumb

[SteamyTea]

I don't know how much a SunAmp weighs, but my storage heaters probably have a greater energy density than a SunAmp.

The reason they can do this is because they can storage at a much higher temperature.

[ProDave]

Lacking in detail and full of greenwash.

 

If it's an electric storage boiler using resistance heating to heat it up, then yes it might be "zero emission" in your house, but it will add to CO2 levels until the entire electricity generating system become zero CO2.

 

AND it will cost a lot more to run than a gas or oil boiler that it is replacing, they forget to mention that.

 

And if it stores HEAT just how can it become a "power plant" to export to the grid?

 

IF you are going to switch to electric heating you would do MUCH better looking at a heat pump, that will take most of it's hear from the air.

[Ed Davies]

46 minutes ago, ProDave said:

And if it stores HEAT just how can it become a "power plant" to export to the grid?

 

I didn't see them claim that. I think it just switches off its charging when the grid's having a bit of bother.

 

47 minutes ago, ProDave said:

IF you are going to switch to electric heating you would do MUCH better looking at a heat pump, that will take most of it's hear from the air.

 

One size doesn't fit all. There are places were you can't have a heat pump and can't have gas where direct electric is pretty much the only option. E.g., many flats and perhaps some houses in conservation areas. Something like this would be a big step up from direct-to-room electric heating ('cause you can charge it on E7 or whatever) and be more comfortable and controllable than traditional brick-to-air night-storage heaters if it's practical to put in wet radiators or UFH.

[SteamyTea]

I have recently read that it may be possible to get paid to take energy when there is a surplus.  Somehow I don't think this is going to happen, was more smartmeter.org.uk claiming this was a reason to get a smart meter.

But if that is the case, and electricity during other times is not too costly, I would consider getting some more storage heater and getting them to switch on at the right time.

I think I could  reliably pull 70A, so that is ~16 kW.

If they were paying 3p/kWh to take power, and that window is half a a day, 3 times a week during the winter, then that is ~£12.50.

I better go on the hunt for some free storage heater.

[Ed Davies]

40 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I have recently read that it may be possible to get paid to take energy when there is a surplus.  Somehow I don't think this is going to happen, was more smartmeter.org.uk claiming this was a reason to get a smart meter.

 

Wholesale electricity prices in the UK have gone negative but I think it's only for very short periods, like a few times ever. I don't remember but rather doubt it was in the winter, more like breezy summer nights I'd expect. It happened first and more often in Germany. With the increasing amount of battery storage and so on on the grid I really doubt domestic users would make anything much this way on a smart meter but they might get some very cheap electricity. Not that up to date on it all, though.

[SteamyTea]

7 hours ago, Ed Davies said:

Wholesale electricity prices in the UK have gone negative

Seems it happened on the 26/05/2019 for 9 hours and again the next day for 2 hours.

This lead to an average system price of -£12.16/MWh.

https://www.current-news.co.uk/news/uk-negative-power-pricing-record-smashed-and-balancing-costs-spike-during-extraordinary-weekend

[MrMagic]

If you're on the Octopus Agile tariff you can take advantage of some of these lower wholesale rates - theres a great tool here that shows you the historical data - 

 

https://www.energy-stats.uk/octopus-agile-southern-england/

 

Unfortunately the 30min samples are not shown that far back but you can see the minimum price for 8/12/28 was -2.43p/kWh, 25/12/18 was 0p/kWh and more recently 11/10/19 was 0.36p/kWh so cheap leccy can be found if you can load shift. The flip side of this tariff being the 4pm - 7pm peak prices are high if you can't shift your usage out of this window.

 

I think this is what appeals to me with some form of 'battery' storage to make use of the cheaper overnight rates and then utilise that energy throughout the day. Living in a terraced house my options for 1000L Akvaterm type stores are somewhat limited so need something simple - if someone can crack the combi replacement with another suitable box type conundrum then I will happily switch...

[SteamyTea]

8 minutes ago, MrMagic said:

The flip side of this tariff being the 4pm - 7pm peak prices are high if you can't shift your usage out of this window.

I am at work then, so may be worth having a look at.

Is there a live feed that I could use to switch on equipment when the price is low i.e. if unit price is less than 1p, switch on water and storage heaters.

[joth]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

 

Is there a live feed that I could use to switch on equipment when the price is low i.e. if unit price is less than 1p, switch on water and storage heaters.

 

To be effective the electricity supplier would need to provide this as an API, so far none seem to and it'd doubtlessly be different for each provider making a new form of lock in if you did get it working.

For some reason the industry standardisation is focused on hardware solutions (smart meters and auxiliary output circuits) rather than open APIs. That thinking is half a century out of date really, harking back to the original E7 meter. 

 

[SteamyTea]

9 minutes ago, joth said:

That thinking is half a century out of date really, harking back to the original E7 meter. 

Yes it is.

I have often wondered why no one has made a low power transmitter that fools the radio controlled switch on the E7.

Would save me about 50p a day.

[MrMagic]

@SteamyTea - yes this is available as an API. They publish the rates a day in advance so you can schedule in any automations / predict / charge your 'stores' accordingly. If you don't want to program I believe they also have an integration with IFTTT.

 

API documentation - https://developer.octopus.energy/docs/api/

 

Alternatively they have an E7 'like' tariff with 'GO', primarily aimed at EV drivers which gives you 4 hours of 5p leccy between 12.30 and 4.30am and then an approx 14p/kWh day rate

[Dan F]

On 08/11/2019 at 14:01, MrMagic said:

@SteamyTea - yes this is available as an API. They publish the rates a day in advance so you can schedule in any automations / predict / charge your 'stores' accordingly. If you don't want to program I believe they also have an integration with IFTTT.

 

Any idea what control systems are available that could use this API to adjust things, like to what % you heat UVC etc?  Coud a Loxone setup use this API pherhaps?

[joth]

30 minutes ago, Dan Feist said:

 

Any idea what control systems are available that could use this API to adjust things, like to what % you heat UVC etc?  Coud a Loxone setup use this API pherhaps?

 

As I'm using loxone for critical functions like lighting, my own plan is to keep the Loxone config as simple as possible - for heating, it may be very little - just relaying of the room temperature sensors to the basic heating control function (that aims to keep a constant temperature 24/7). 

Then add interface to Loxone (or the ASHP itself, depending on its controller) to have it expose an "Economy" energy saving mode (i.e. enable it reduces the heating set point).  This will free me to use a more friendly development environment (initially Home Assistant, on an NUC or my synology box) to poke around with higher level functions like energy pricing, weather prediction, occupancy/holiday modes etc and have that just flip the "Economy mode" on of off as needed.

This way I can tinker at will in the higher level system without distablizing the core automation controller. If the higher level system crashes or throws a wobbly (or, we sell up, or I'm not available to sys-admin it one day) I can very easily turn it off and have a graceful fallback to the basic mode that meets 90% of the needs. (As a general rule of thumb, I want the loxone system to have zero direct connections to internet, and strictly minimize its dependency on internal LAN). 

 

Looks like there's an initial HA integration here: https://community.home-assistant.io/t/templates-in-command-line-sensor-octopus-energy-api/96141/48 - that just pulls historical usage data but good starting point. 

Aside from Home-Assistant, there's more specific projects like https://openenergymonitor.org/ and www.openenergi.com and no doubt others in future... again keeping logic that plays with any of them out of my core building control system (heating and lighting in the loxone) means it will be easier to play around with the options over the years as they come and go, without risking taking the whole house offline.