16bar water supply piping

[scottishjohn]

18 minutes ago, Conor said:

Tbh, a rainwater system sounds like the best system. With the lengths, pumping heads etc, I think you are looking at a lifetime of pain. A rainwater storage and treatment system would be a lot easier to maintain. And remember, for flushing toilets etc, you don't need to treat the water.

still need a very large tank 

i talked to a eco guy from up north west who does this sort of thing and he admits that with even just 3 people his 9000litre tank runs out in dry times in may ,as its quite dry then 

 my idea is not just a house for the 2 of  us  but as it is so big there will be 2-4 letting sections of it as well --so that means water usage will be quite large in summer when  rain and stream is worst  and maybe 12+ people 

If i rebuild all of the building it will be 700+sqm--

 

so how big a tank  for that 30000litres?

taking assumption that its 150litres a day per person --12 x150 ==1800 per day and could be more --so with say 3 weeks no rain --thats 37000litres- 

I know its all guess work --but now is the time to make sure you get it right 

the pump i,m looking will deliver 2000lpr hour --so will only need a sensible sized pressure vessel+ maybe a pump to keep pressure happy when al showers etc going at once .

to be honest it would not cost that much more in the scale of the project  to have twice that volume.

I think there would be more pain with rainwater +purification system  longterm 

Edited October 6, 2019 by scottishjohn

[scottishjohn]

31 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Have you talked to borehole people?  Though that high up a borehole might end up very deep with the same problems. 

I will be asking for a quote for a 450 ft bore hole --but i thinkthey will never give a fixed price quote --we,ll try 

and even then will the flow be enough 

Edited October 6, 2019 by scottishjohn

[ProDave]

The point of talking to the borehole contractors first is they should look at the geology and tell you the likelyhood of finding water and at what depth.

 

Rainwater systems work well in the Australian outback, I was impressed by the quality of the water when visiting my BIL in Queensland, but they collect the house rainwater in 2 small tanks, and the rainwater from 2 barns in larger tanks. All above ground tanks as no risk of freezing there.  There are only 3 of them normally using that supply and even so in the dry season they have to be careful.  But at least if they run low there is the infrastructure there to just go and buy in a tanker of water.  With such a system here, would Scottish Water sell you a tanker full?

[Jeremy Harris]

One way of estimating whether a borehole might be feasible would be to take a look at BGS borehole records (select the borehole scans option and zoom in to see any boreholes nearby): http://mapapps.bgs.ac.uk/geologyofbritain/home.html

 

Typical price for a water borehole down here is around £100 to £120 per metre, including all rig costs, liner, grouting, well chamber etc, but excluding the pump, controls, pipe work, pressure vessel etc.  Costs would probably be higher for hard rock drilling, due to the increased time taken.  At a guess, drilling a ~140m borehole is likely to cost around £15k or so, plus maybe another £2k to £3k for the pump, controls, pipework etc.  The chances are that the level of any aquifer will be just above the level of any spring fed ponds forming in quarries etc nearby.    A borehole pump that's able to push a head of over 140m is no problem, the small SQ range from Grundfos includes models with a working head of up to about 230m.

[Ed Davies]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

With such a system here, would Scottish Water sell you a tanker full?

 

I think they would. When I went to talk to SW to check we wouldn't go through one of their mains getting my entrance dug I also chatted with the engineer about my rainwater harvesting plans. Can't remember the exact conversation now but I did mention the possibility of buying in a few cubic metres in case of a drought and he didn't say it wasn't possible.

 

BTW, BT and SSE were both very good about this check. SSE replied with a PDF map of their cables in the area the morning after I emailed them. BT took a little longer but sent a chap with a mine detector sort of thing to verify that, yes, their cables were buried on the other side of the road and they had none on my side.

 

SW's office in Inverness were unhelpful to the point of obstructiveness and their web site's address for the local (Wick) office was about a decade out of date but when I found out where the local office actually was they couldn't have been more helpful. Engineer took me to his desk and called up the GIS plans of the area and we had a good talk about my project and the options for getting mains water to my house if I ever wanted it or to the other half of the plot for anybody building there did.

 

So, @scottishjohn, I'd strongly recommend paying a visit to your local SW office and having a chat.

 

If you're looking to rent out bits then rainwater harvesting gets a bit more tricky. The local Environmental Health people were reasonably happy about my rainwater harvesting plans but that was conditional on my not preparing food for the public, i.e., not running a B&B or anything.

 

Also, they sent me a leaflet saying to allow 200 litres per person per day on the assumption of two people in each bedroom. I argued that was unreasonable as my house isn't intended for that level of occupancy and anyway you can easily use much less than 200 l/peep/day. I suspect, though, they'd insist on that for accommodation which is rented out.

[Nickfromwales]

What about sucking the water up to the midway break tank instead of pumping up to it? And then pump up directly to the dwellings into 500L accumulators to buffer out your max demand. You can add as many of those as you like afterwards, which minimises capital expenditure and gives a full start to finish solution that's future proof. If umping its good to remember that you'll be into fitting accumulator of some capacity to smooth the delivery of pressurised water to the domestic outlets within the dwelling. I stay in a hotel where one of his drinking buddies fitted a pump direct to the hotel hot and cold network. Nothing.......nothing......tidal wave. Great.

Suck water up with 2 double check NRV's in line to stop back flow, and that should deal with the pressure issues pumping from the ground. Depends how big a tank you can fit at the bottom of the run though, because if its big enough you will only need the treatment midway and you then pump in much smaller volumes from there to offset whats been drawn from the accumulators. 

Circular MDPE should be good against vacuum deficit / collapse so ok for suction ( AFAIK ).

[ProDave]

You can only suck up to 1 bar, just over 10 metres......

 

[Nickfromwales]

5 minutes ago, ProDave said:

You can only suck up to 1 bar, just over 10 metres......

 

Why limited? I'm on about from a tank, not direct off the mains.

[SteamyTea]

Does it stop becoming potable water if it goes into a vented tank?

[ProDave]

19 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Why limited? I'm on about from a tank, not direct off the mains.

When you suck water, it is in fact just the air pressure that is pushing it up the pipe.  Try and go beyond 1 bar and you just get a vacuum in the pipe above the water.

[Jeremy Harris]

17 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Does it stop becoming potable water if it goes into a vented tank?

 

 

Yes, it does.  Water drawn from an open vented tank has to be treated, easy enough to do, just a matter of running it through a UV disinfection unit.  These are almost as good as the disinfection methods used for the mains water supply.  The only real difference is that they don't provide any form of long-lasting disinfection, plus they are generally less than 100% effective, in that some circumstances may cause tiny amounts of bugs to get through.

 

It's all a matter of degree, though.  We generally have pretty good immune systems, so as long as the water is reasonably bug-free we're usually OK drinking it.

[Nickfromwales]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

When you suck water, it is in fact just the air pressure that is pushing it up the pipe.  Try and go beyond 1 bar and you just get a vacuum in the pipe above the water.

Not actually seen it done, so another physics lesson for me then   Just thought it may have alleviated the issue around the pipe. Bigger pump and suck it up there.

No worries, I'll just sneak in later under the cover of darkness and delete my ramblings.....  

[Jeremy Harris]

36 minutes ago, ProDave said:

When you suck water, it is in fact just the air pressure that is pushing it up the pipe.  Try and go beyond 1 bar and you just get a vacuum in the pipe above the water.

 

 

Good fun to do as an experiment if you have a vacuum pump and chamber.  I have one (an old fridge compressor) that I use for  degassing resin mixes, with a glass bell jar so I can see what's going on inside.  Put a glass of water in there and take the pressure down and it doesn't take long before the water just boils off.  It doesn't need to be that high a vacuum, either.  At room temperature water will boil when the pressure drops to about 23mbara

[scottishjohn]

2 hours ago, Ed Davies said:

If you're looking to rent out bits then rainwater harvesting gets a bit more tricky. The local Environmental Health people were reasonably happy about my rainwater harvesting plans but that was conditional on my not preparing food for the public, i.e., not running a B&B or anything.

not b+b but renting out parts of building as self contained accomodation 

[ProDave]

6 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Not actually seen it done, so another physics lesson for me then   Just thought it may have alleviated the issue around the pipe. Bigger pump and suck it up there.

No worries, I'll just sneak in later under the cover of darkness and delete my ramblings.....  

Physics lesson 

 

[scottishjohn]

48 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

What about sucking the water up to the midway break tank instead of pumping up to it? And then pump up directly to the dwellings into 500L accumulators to buffer out your max demand. You can add as many of those as you like afterwards, which minimises capital expenditure and gives a full start to finish solution that's future proof. If umping its good to remember that you'll be into fitting accumulator of some capacity to smooth the delivery of pressurised water to the domestic outlets within the dwelling. I stay in a hotel where one of his drinking buddies fitted a pump direct to the hotel hot and cold network. Nothing.......nothing......tidal wave. Great.

Suck water up with 2 double check NRV's in line to stop back flow, and that should deal with the pressure issues pumping from the ground. Depends how big a tank you can fit at the bottom of the run though, because if its big enough you will only need the treatment midway and you then pump in much smaller volumes from there to offset whats been drawn from the accumulators. 

Circular MDPE should be good against vacuum deficit / collapse so ok for suction ( AFAIK ).

nope sucking will not work head of pump is always many times what it will suck ,would have to be 2 pumping stations -so might as well have one big one at bottom --juts needs 16bar pipe 

nick-- can you tell me is black pipng passed for potable water ?

Edited October 6, 2019 by scottishjohn

[Nickfromwales]

6 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

nick-- can you tell me is black pipng passed for potable water ?

Honest answer, No. You'd need to get a copy of the certification from the manufacturer, even more so if you deliver water to 3rd parties.

[scottishjohn]

3 hours ago, JSHarris said:

One way of estimating whether a borehole might be feasible would be to take a look at BGS borehole records (select the borehole scans option and zoom in to see any boreholes nearby): http://mapapps.bgs.ac.uk/geologyofbritain/home.html

 

Typical price for a water borehole down here is around £100 to £120 per metre, including all rig costs, liner, grouting, well chamber etc, but excluding the pump, controls, pipe work, pressure vessel etc.  Costs would probably be higher for hard rock drilling, due to the increased time taken.  At a guess, drilling a ~140m borehole is likely to cost around £15k or so, plus maybe another £2k to £3k for the pump, controls, pipework etc.  The chances are that the level of any aquifer will be just above the level of any spring fed ponds forming in quarries etc nearby.    A borehole pump that's able to push a head of over 140m is no problem, the small SQ range from Grundfos includes models with a working head of up to about 230m.

that could be true --but need to allow for worst scenario of sucking directly from quarry pond  at this stage

if you add 50% for hard rock thats over 20K

  and not having to run a 3phase cable down to pump at bottom of hill will save £2000--we will see what drilling men say this week

Edited October 6, 2019 by scottishjohn

[scottishjohn]

1 minute ago, Nickfromwales said:

Honest answer, No. You'd need to get a copy of the certification from the manufacturer, even more so if you deliver water to 3rd parties.

Ok --thats what ithought only some are advertising black as suitabler for potable water--will ask them more questions

[ProDave]

23 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

that could be true --but need to allow for worst scenario of sucking directly from quarry pond  at this stage

if you add 50% for hard rock thats over 20K

  and not having to run a 3phase cable down to pump at bottom of hill will save £2000--we will see what drilling men say this week

When you were talking of a borehole I thought you meant to an aquifer in the normal way, not to draw water out of the quarry pool.  Is that wise?

[scottishjohn]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

When you were talking of a borehole I thought you meant to an aquifer in the normal way, not to draw water out of the quarry pool.  Is that wise?

I,m sure this will be covered in the converstion with the drilling men -- there are 3lb+ trout in it and lots of roach -

-so it can,t be that bad  and of course i willl get the water tested at some point.

a 6acre pond which has depths to 50ft ,so i,m assured by quarry men that used to work there,

again we will have a wee boating excursion with a plumb line to confirm 

It is a large body of water and a very nice blue colour when the sun shines and so clear  and no weed I can see at all -

[ProDave]

There are fish in the English canals. I would not drink from them.

[SteamyTea]

If you are sucking water up, is there a possibility that the pipe will crush if there is no water in it?  Kind of thing that a small buckle would cause.

 

11 minutes ago, ProDave said:

There are fish in the English canals. I would not drink from them.

 

Was it not W C Fields that said

"Fish make love it and little boys do worse'

[ProDave]

So if you try sucking water above 10 metres, you create a vacuum above the water, and have just created a barometer.

 

But water boils in a vacuum.  So that won't be a vacuum at the top, but steam?

[Jeremy Harris]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

So if you try sucking water above 10 metres, you create a vacuum above the water, and have just created a barometer.

 

But water boils in a vacuum.  So that won't be a vacuum at the top, but steam?

 

 

Water vapour, rather than steam.  One reason for using mercury in a barometer is that it has a very low vapour pressure.