16bar water supply piping

[scottishjohn]

Hi,

 the plot I am in process of buying --more later -hopefully all sorted in next 2 weeks --been a long haul

the house is 140m above mains connection 

I looked into rainwater from roof supplimented by very small stream -which is not constant  --but talking to someone who has done this -i would need a very large tank --10,000litre min -then a treatment plant --so costs are high how ever I do it

so i need flexible pipe to go from pumping station to house as the terrain is not flat and will be hard digging -approx 400m --very much all rock 

normal blue water pipe is only rated for 12.5 bar 

 

and at bottom of hill it will need to take 14 bar--  204psi

 

now i can find 16 bar black pipe but no blue mdpe rated above 12.5bar 

is it permissable to use black type for  supply from my pumping station up the hill

Is there any  WRAS approved flexible that will take that pressure --do not want  to use straight lengths --shape of ground and too many joints 

are there any other options like galv metal pipe up a distance then swop to blue ? alot of it lying about on the plot--need to check size 

50mm is size the pump suppiers want to use

 

first thing i was told i cannot connect pump direct to mains --so i have to start from zero head at pump station from a tank which is fed by mains

 

open to suggestions.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by scottishjohn

[ProDave]

So you are proposing to collect / treat your water supply lower down the hill and them pump it up 140 metres?  What it the height above sea level of the actual house, sounds quite high.

 

How about pumping the raw water up in a 2 stage process with a tank half way and doing the treatment at the house?

[scottishjohn]

4 minutes ago, ProDave said:

So you are proposing to collect / treat your water supply lower down the hill and them pump it up 140 metres?  What it the height above sea level of the actual house, sounds quite high.

 

How about pumping the raw water up in a 2 stage process with a tank half way and doing the treatment at the house?

I have mains water at sea level 

house is 440-450ft ABSL

obvioulsy will check it exactly once on site and work our how long a run

guess at this time 400m

that would mean 2 pump houses and multiple pumps  and there would be no road half way up the hill

finding the right pipe will be cheaper

but all suggestions welcome

[Jeremy Harris]

I can see where the 16 bar is coming from, ~14 bar for the head plus 2 bar working pressure.  Whether a half way option might work depends on the pressure in the main.  It'd need to be over 7 bar to get half way, perhaps a bit higher as the water supplier won't want any suction on their main, so will need to ensure a bit of headroom.

 

Even HDPE is normally only rated to 12.5 bar, though, so  suspect you're going to have to use galvanised iron pipe.  This is usually rated at 50 bar, so more than enough, it's just a bit of a PITA to lay.

 

[ProDave]

If you have mains water at sea level, then it will have enough pressure to get part way up the hill.  You would need to measure the pressure to see how far.

 

This is sounding like a house I worked on years ago in Glen Urquahart.  The mains water went as far as it could up the hill and emptied into an underground break tank.  From there it was pumped up with a borehole pump up to the house.  You can't suck from the water main so it has to go via a break tank.

 

You just need to see first if the mains pressure will get it high enough to do the second lift in one go with one pump.

[scottishjohn]

it is next to a quarry so there is loads of galv piping that was used for water supply to cutting machines etc in the quarry --

 

how corroded internally  will be the worry --certainly no sign on outside of galv piping --  but 30 years since being used!!also need to check size

 

mains at road level  will be at least 3 bar i think( looking at houses along the main road and thier height above it) ,but they will never warranty anything more than 1 bar--

so thats still leaves us needing a better pipe than std 12.bar

 maybe i got to get mains connection and measure what it is  and then make a decision on pump station location 

still a bit iffy cos it could change 

 

right pipe is best idea 

 

no problem in getting a pump to do it ,other than the usual one  -cost - it needs to be a single phase 2.2kw -or a 3phase --looking to about 2.5-3k +cost of tank and pump house structure 

I,m erring towards 3 phase as cable size i have to run to it from house 400m away  and that changes in size alot between single and 3 phase due to amperage 

only scratching the surface of the problems and possibilites of this site__must be mad 

 

maybe even some hydro --but all costs money to start with 

 

I  think i will end up selling a house on other side of the quarry , to get some money to do what i want and itsplot is  5 acres+ i see every possibility for another house plot there as well!!--it also has outstanding views and possibilites for life style biz with holiday cabins etc up the hill  

I no doubt will be offering you boys wonderful oppertunites  shortly -if you up for the challenges

 

will post it all up ,when finally the ink is dry  on the contract 

I,m probably mad at my age --but it seemed too good to turn down --got to take a chance and something silly once in your life

#worst case scenario  is i sell it again at some point 

first job is 100+scyamores+ ashes  to remove and many fallen trees as well  --so first thing will be  firewood biz -maybe find someone who wnats to do it ,and just take a cut,get vsome money back in the coffers 

[scottishjohn]

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

I can see where the 16 bar is coming from, ~14 bar for the head plus 2 bar working pressure.  Whether a half way option might work depends on the pressure in the main.  It'd need to be over 7 bar to get half way, perhaps a bit higher as the water supplier won't want any suction on their main, so will need to ensure a bit of headroom.

 

Even HDPE is normally only rated to 12.5 bar, though, so  suspect you're going to have to use galvanised iron pipe.  This is usually rated at 50 bar, so more than enough, it's just a bit of a PITA to lay.

 

I have found some mdpe 63mm at 16 bar --so will keep hunting -maybe change size half way up 

[Jeremy Harris]

7 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

I have found some mdpe 63mm at 16 bar --so will keep hunting -maybe change size half way up 

 

 

Maybe just use 50mm/2" galvanised for the lower section, then switch to MDPE when the pressure's down to a lower level, higher up the hill?

[scottishjohn]

Ijusat found some black 50mm -16bar

 

https://www.mjabbottdirect.co.uk/Products/DUCT,-PIPE-HOSE/PE-PIPE/Black-Water-Pipe/Black-HPPE-Water-Pipe/50mm-x-50-metres-HPPE-(PE100-SDR11)-water-pipe-to-BS-EN-12201-16-bar-BLACK

but no mention of WRAS approved--not sure if that would be a problem 

[PeterW]

Class E ABS could do it but is about £6 a metre plus the welding kit. I would build a pump house half way up and split the difference. 

 

Other option is a borehole but I bet the ground is hard up there !!

[scottishjohn]

2 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

Maybe just use 50mm/2" galvanised for the lower section, then switch to MDPE when the pressure's down to a lower level, higher up the hill?

yes 

could do -its twice the price of mdpe and as you say in rough uneven ground a pain to lay --it will be heavy diggin as most of it will be rock 

change when below 10bar --to be sure --not sure what the coulings are rated at ==that will be next hunting job --but suppose at a pinch could use compression fittings

[scottishjohn]

5 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Class E ABS could do it but is about £6 a metre plus the welding kit. I would build a pump house half way up and split the difference. 

 

Other option is a borehole but I bet the ground is hard up there !!

fully granite --you could paint a foundation line and build on it

6m is accpetable +hire of joing tool  if nec##

but will abs not be very rigid --will be hard to make trenchs for non flexible piping 

£6 m  x 400 = alot 

you would need 2 pump houses then --no not a good choice  I feel 

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by scottishjohn

[Jeremy Harris]

10 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

yes 

could do -its twice the price of mdpe and as you say in rough uneven ground a pain to lay --it will be heavy diggin as most of it will be rock 

change when below 10bar --to be sure --not sure what the coulings are rated at ==that will be next hunting job --but suppose at a pinch could use compression fittings

 

You can get 50mm/2" galvanised  pre-threaded, with couplings (also rated at 50 bar) in 6.4m lengths: https://www.pipestock.com/malleable-iron/threaded-steel-tube/galvanised-heavy-grade  Not cheap though, at £280/length.

[scottishjohn]

8 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

You can get 50mm/2" galvanised  pre-threaded, with couplings (also rated at 50 bar) in 6.4m lengths: https://www.pipestock.com/malleable-iron/threaded-steel-tube/galvanised-heavy-grade  Not cheap though, at £280/length.

not sure i will use what i have --but maybe a good ebay sales item .LOL

there are even soeme lengths of 4" plastic thick walled stuff -- not sure how long --but looks like a lot .

 and the scrap on the site-- huge winch s and rollers --  --all will help the coffers

If i got enough of the 2" galv --maybe get a quote to re galv them --

and to think i sold an electric piping  thread cutting bench a few years ago --  maybe going to need to hire one --

Edited October 5, 2019 by scottishjohn

[Conor]

Sdr11 HPPE pipe is rated to 16bar.

 

https://www.mjabbottdirect.co.uk/Products/DUCT,-PIPE-HOSE/PE-PIPE/Black-Water-Pipe/Black-HPPE-Water-Pipe/32mm-x-50-metres-HPPE-(PE100-SDR11)-water-pipe-to-BS-EN-12201-16-bar-BLACK

 

You best option is to measure the water pressure at the main, run a direct 32mm connection to a break pressure tank at the appropriate head, then have your pump setup to push the water the rest of the way. You will, at the very minimum, get 15m head at the mains, more like 25m. You'll also need a surge reflief valve or vessel at you pumping station.

Edited October 5, 2019 by Conor

[scottishjohn]

1 hour ago, Conor said:

Sdr11 HPPE pipe is rated to 16bar.

 

https://www.mjabbottdirect.co.uk/Products/DUCT,-PIPE-HOSE/PE-PIPE/Black-Water-Pipe/Black-HPPE-Water-Pipe/32mm-x-50-metres-HPPE-(PE100-SDR11)-water-pipe-to-BS-EN-12201-16-bar-BLACK

 

You best option is to measure the water pressure at the main, run a direct 32mm connection to a break pressure tank at the appropriate head, then have your pump setup to push the water the rest of the way. You will, at the very minimum, get 15m head at the mains, more like 25m. You'll also need a surge reflief valve or vessel at you pumping station.

thanks  

ifound that website --but no mention of being WRAS approved  and it  needs to be 50 mm --but they do that as well -sent email for clarification

Edited October 5, 2019 by scottishjohn

[ProDave]

If the house is 140 metres above the road, that's only 13.725 bar to get to the house (plus what head you want at the house.)

 

If you think the mains will have 3 bar pressure, put your break tank and pump station 25 metres up the hill.  It does not matter if the flow rate is a bit poor (only 0.5 bar left) as long as the tank is a reasonable size.

 

To get the remaining 115 metres up the hill needs 11.27 bar at the pump, plus say another 2 bar to give you enough pressure at the house, a 14 bar pump and pipe should be plenty.

 

Remember, your pump in the break tank should pump until the pressure in the accumulator at the house gets to the set pressure, AND the pump must stop if a float switch in the break tank detects low water (you have lost your feed)

 

Get the water connection, measure the pressure at different times of day and make the final design on where to put the break tank when you know the facts.

 

The one I saw, I think they had a pretty large break tank on the basis they thought at peak times the mains pressure may not be enough to reach it!

[scottishjohn]

5 hours ago, ProDave said:

To get the remaining 115 metres up the hill needs 11.27 bar at the pump, plus say another 2 bar to give you enough pressure at the house, a 14 bar pump and pipe should be plenty

I agree if I can find asuitable location for pump station --but std rate for blue mdpe is 12,5 bar   not 14 -so still short to get 2 bar at house ,yes i could use a booster at house --but 16 bar pipe sorts it  simpler - more later when definite numbers are known  

I still have to find a suitable route as well around the many rocky bits so I can bury it enough 

 going straight up the face.which would be simpler , but that would mean fully insulated piping so it can,t freeze in winter 

the only insulated pipe I ,ve seen  would be MEGA EXPENSIVE  for the length required

 a knotty problem  all round

using rianwater and surface stream + very large tank  would be a problem if we get a winter like is forecast--no rainwater  and stream would be frozen 

iwonder how much insulation would be needed --for  -14c when mians water will be around 5-8c

Edited October 5, 2019 by scottishjohn

[ProDave]

Presumably you have a vehicle track to get to the plot. Can it not go under there though that would make it longer than straight up? 

[scottishjohn]

5 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Presumably you have a vehicle track to get to the plot. Can it not go under there though that would make it longer than straight up? 

yes the road to get there  ,which has no mains water on it--last house connected is   300m down the road  and 60 m lower and then my own road of about 800yds  is not viable.

 the easiest route would mean a wayleave through another piece of ground  which is slopy very rough fields 

no gaurentee i would get it 

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by scottishjohn

[ProDave]

I can see this one has many challenges.

[scottishjohn]

I think I might be holding up completion till i have a reasonable solution --one that don,t cost 40K for water supply

 

[ProDave]

Have you talked to borehole people?  Though that high up a borehole might end up very deep with the same problems. 

[Conor]

Tbh, a rainwater system sounds like the best system. With the lengths, pumping heads etc, I think you are looking at a lifetime of pain. A rainwater storage and treatment system would be a lot easier to maintain. And remember, for flushing toilets etc, you don't need to treat the water.

[scottishjohn]

problem with that will be the adjacent quarry -- quite sure tthat with it being a sheer face within 80 yards of the house the subterranian  water will go easiest way 

and I know there is water  coming in to the quarry  from the rock face at low level

  so there will be no water till you get down to below level of quarry pond --so thats 450 ft hole in solid granite drilled at a slant to be sure --its a big pond a good few acres

could be wrong but thats a big expensive guess

Edited October 6, 2019 by scottishjohn