MCS installer stoops to new low.

[ProDave]

The plasterer that plastered our house phone me today. He is planning a new build of his own.

 

Today he has been meeting with various people, one of whom is the local renewable energy contractor.

 

He was getting a quote for an Air Source Heat pump.  For some reason they never mentioned or discussed RHI.

 

But the purpose of this post is this local firm is spouting the untruth that you NEED an MCS certificate for building control to accept it and issue your completion certificate.

 

Sounds very naughty to me.

[MikeSharp01]

Yep - perhaps they don't understand their own business or maybe they understand the average punter too well.

[ToughButterCup]

Its 2019 for Gods sake! Why do people bother to even try?

[joth]

To be charitable, they might have been trying to say it needs to be installed to MCS or equivalent standards to be valid under  permitted development.

But more likely it's exactly as you suspect.

[ProDave]

Topical update.  My plasterer was so worried about this that he phoned building control, and they confirmed they do not require any special paperwork for an ASHP install.

[joe90]

Perhaps this comes under the remit of trading standards, very naughty.

[stevethefarm]

A similar but slightly different experience, this company went down the RHI route rather than mcs certification. During the booming boiler replacement scheme season (Wales) last year, following a knock on the door the below quote was provided for a rental property with storage heaters. The company also offered free loft insulation.

 

System Design Temp 50

Annual income and savings estimate: £2712.83 (RHI £878.13)

Mitsubishi Ecodan PUHZ-W85VAA (8.5) (5.4kVA) x 1

Graphical Control unit x 1

Ecodan Flexible Pipes x 1

Total Filter TF1 (22mm) 1

Sika Flow Sensor x 1

Quick start Guide & DVD x 1

135L 3rd Party New DHW Cylinder x 1

Installation, commissioning, & Certification x 1

Goods and services Total £17,427.62

VAT £871.38

Grand Total £18,299.00

7 year Warranty

RHI Total £6587.67

Metre and monitor payments £1610.00 (Cost or income?)

Total Yearly savings estimate £14,791.66

Total savings and returns £22,989.33

 

As far as i could see the estimate did not include a central heating system which would make the quote even higher, and the savings seemed a little over the top given that the total electricity bill was around £1000 annually, although admittedly the storage heaters did not adequately heat the property for that cost. All this and more was available for installation within 2 weeks of agreement subject to full heat loss calculations within a week costing £250 as long as it could be agreed during the day of quotation for some random reason. Conveniently finance could be provided through their own bank.

 

Needless to say the quote was not accepted, although i have no others to compare it to it did not seem reasonable.

[Jeremy Harris]

A random web search quickly found that ASHP being sold retail for £3,156.30, inc. VAT: https://www.swatengineering.co.uk/shop/mitsubishi-electric-ecodan-air-source-heating/mitsubishi-electric-air-source-pump-puhz-w85vaa

 

The chances are it could be found at a better price by hunting around a bit.  A complete packaged system, including that heat pump and a 200 litre cylinder costs a bit over £2,000 more, so the total for all the parts needed, excluding the central heating system parts, looks to be around £5,200 at the most (I would guess the price I've just quickly found may not be the best).

 

Worst case labour might be around 2 days.  I fitted our ASHP in about half a day, and I'm not a plumber/heating engineer, and I'd never fitted one before.  Labour rates vary, but around here a decent heating engineer might be as much as £250/day.

[ProDave]

3 hours ago, stevethefarm said:

Total Yearly savings estimate £14,791.66

 

I would love to see the calculations that arrived at that statement.

 

A "little" optimistic?

[stevethefarm]

4 hours ago, ProDave said:

I would love to see the calculations that arrived at that statement.

 

A "little" optimistic?

 

Estimated cost per unit of fuel 18.35 (I'm not sure what this unit price was referring to)

Estimated energy required 11530 kwh

space heating 8927 kwh

DHW 2603 kwh

Estimated current cost £2115.76

Assumed electricity price 11.06875 p per kwh

Estimated heat pump running cost £396.06

year 1 saving £1719.70

year 2 saving £1836.64

year 3 saving £1961.53

year 4 saving £2094.91

year 5 saving £2237.37

year 6 saving £2389.51

year 7 saving £2552.00

 

I have not bothered to check if their calculations even add up correctly, everything about the quote was ridiculous.

[Oldsteel]

Caveat Emptor - first rule of self build .....

[ProDave]

Some VERY dodgy maths.

Space heating 8927kWh DHW 2603kWh  gives a total of 11530 which at an electricity price of 11.06875p gives £1276.22

 

They seem to have nearly doubled that.

 

So lets assume the HP gives a COP of 4.  You still need the same kWh of heat but that will now only need 2882kWh of electricity, which will cost £319.04

 

So saving of £957 per year

 

At their system cost of £18299 that will take 19 years to repay the cost

[stevethefarm]

17 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Some VERY dodgy maths.

Space heating 8927kWh DHW 2603kWh  gives a total of 11530 which at an electricity price of 11.06875p gives £1276.22

 

They seem to have nearly doubled that.

 

looking at the two given unit prices of electricity, unit price 18.35 and electricity price 11.06875, i assume that they are giving economy 7 night and day figures and then assuming again that the storage heaters were turned off and the entire heating and dhw demand met using direct electric heating at peak price to get the inflated figures.

 

11530 kwh x £0.1835 = £2115.755

 

As a comparison they also quoted £7000 to replace a boiler.