Party Wall Act needed for Steels?

[Mootoo]

Hello all

 

Please excuse my ignorance but I am new to this game!  I have just had planning permission approved for my rear extension.  Part of it will mean building over the existing driveway.  I already have one room of my property built in this way. 

 

In order to do this we will need to put steels up the side of my neighbours property as he doesn't want us to use his walls to build off from.  The steel beams that will take the extension above will be attached to his wall.  Obviously this is less than 3mtrs.  However I don't think we will be digging down further than his existing foundations - would this negate the need for a PWA?

 

I hope the above made some sort of sense!

 

MT

[Dee J]

So you want to attach steel to your neighbours property without a formal agreement? Sounds like a shaky proposition to me. And surely the purpose of using the steel is to avoid  connection with the neighbours property and should be self supporting.

[Onoff]

Don't antagonise your neighbour.

 

You need to move the goal posts.

[lizzie]

Attach steels to his wall with no agreement.....glad you are not my neighbour!

[Mr Punter]

If is their wall on their land you would not be allowed to attach to it without their agreement which they are not obliged to give.  If it is a Party Wall you would need a Party Wall agreement or award.

 

BTW did they object to your planning application?

[Temp]

Building over a driveway? Do you mean building the walls on a concrete driveway instead of cutting through it and forming proper foundations? You might have one room built that way already but was it approved by Building Control? 

[Temp]

 

Quote

In order to do this we will need to put steels up the side of my neighbours property as he doesn't want us to use his walls to build off from.  

 

That doesn't sound right. If it's his wall on his property then you will have to build another wall on your side. Insulation should be on your side of this new wall not between yours and his.

 

Also bear in mind that nothing should overhang the boundary, including the  eaves, verge or gutters. Normally these project out from the wall so the wall may have to be set back further from the boundary.

 

The boundary line may not be his wall but his eaves or verge.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Temp

[Mootoo]

4 hours ago, Dee J said:

So you want to attach steel to your neighbours property without a formal agreement? Sounds like a shaky proposition to me. And surely the purpose of using the steel is to avoid  connection with the neighbours property and should be self supporting.

No that's not what I'm asking.  I was merely enquiring as to the need for the agreement. I'm on good terms with him and have included him in all the plans and discussions.  This was something that has come to my attention today so I just wanted to check.  It may be me misinterpreting the steel positioning.  But it will be very close to his wall.

[Mootoo]

2 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

If is their wall on their land you would not be allowed to attach to it without their agreement which they are not obliged to give.  If it is a Party Wall you would need a Party Wall agreement or award.

 

BTW did they object to your planning application?

No he didn't.  Thank you for your reply much appreciated 

[Mootoo]

2 hours ago, lizzie said:

Attach steels to his wall with no agreement.....glad you are not my neighbour!

Lizzie I have been in full communication with my neighbour from the off.  He agreed to the proposal and actually asked that we use steels instead of his wall which we agreed to.  We have also agreed to put velux windows in to compensate for any loss of light to his bathroom even though we don't have to.  So I think you'll find we aren't that bad a neighbour!  I was simply asking about whether I needed to get a party wall agreement in place as I was a bit confused about it.  

[Mootoo]

4 hours ago, Onoff said:

Don't antagonise your neighbour.

 

You need to move the goal posts.

I'm not intending to antagonize him whatsoever.  We have been on great terms and still are.  I'm a newbie to this world and was just asking for a bit of advice.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Mootoo
Spelling

[Mootoo]

4 hours ago, Dee J said:

So you want to attach steel to your neighbours property without a formal agreement? Sounds like a shaky proposition to me. And surely the purpose of using the steel is to avoid  connection with the neighbours property and should be self supporting.

Dee no.  We have included him in all the proposals from the off.  Infact designed things round his wishes as I do not wish to fall out with my neighbour.  It was simply something that cropped up today that I wasn't fully aware of (pardon me for being new to this world) and I was seeking advice.  Yes you are correct the purpose of the steels are to avoid connection to his wall but I was concerned having read the details about the 3 metre distance that I would have to do something with the PWA.  I am very new to this and trying my hardest to fully understand it all.

[Temp]

Google for "A guide to the Party Wall Act". There is a government booklet by that name.

 

In brief ..

 

If building within 3 meters and your founds go below theirs the PWA applies and you need to follow the procedure in the guide.

 

If building >3m but <6m you can go deeper than their founds but if you go below a 45 degree line detailed in the guide then the PWA will apply.

 

If you are doing anything to an existing wall you need to find out if it is his wall or a party wall. If it's his wall you can't touch it without his agreement (regardless of the Party Wall Act). If it's a party wall you must follow the procedure in the guide. The exception would be where the work is minor such as fixing a shelf to a party wall. My understanding is that if you want to rely on a party wall for structural support (eg fix steels to it) then that is major enough that you need to follow the proceedure in the guide. 

 

If you need to follow the proceedure in the guide, and the neighbour is happy, you really only need to give him drawings and get him to sign a letter.

 

If he's not happy then it gets messy and expensive as you need a PWA Surveyor (or even three).

 

The details and example letters are in the guide.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Temp

[Dee J]

If you're on really good terms with your neighbour then I can't see how the party wall act would apply:

The Party Wall etc Act 1996 provides a framework for preventing and resolving disputes in relation to party walls, boundary walls and excavations near neighbouring buildings. A building owner proposing to start work covered by the Act must give adjoining owners notice of their intentions in the way set down in the Act.

Seeing as it's prime function is to manage relationships and avoid disputes. If you're both entirely happy about the development and there's planning consent then what else is needed. But I'm amazed your neighbour is so chill.

 

[Temp]

Following the procedure in the Guide to The Party Wall act also covers your arse if the neighbour changes his mind. 

[Mootoo]

2 minutes ago, Temp said:

Google for "A guide to the Party Wall Act". There is a government booklet by that name.

 

In brief ..

 

If building within 3 meters and your founds go below theirs the PWA applies and you need to follow the procedure in the guide.

 

If building >3m but <6m you can go deeper than their founds but if you go below a 45 degree line detailed in the guide then the PWA will apply.

 

If you are doing anything to an existing wall you need to find out if it is his wall or a party wall. If it's his wall you can't touch it without his agreement (regardless of the Party Wall Act). If it's a party wall you must follow the procedure in the guide. The exception would be where the work is minor such as fixing a shelf to a party wall. My understanding is that if you want to rely on a party wall for structural support (eg fix steels to it) then that is major enough that you need to follow the proceedure in the guide. 

 

If you need to follow the proceedure in the guide, and the neighbour is happy, you really only need to give him drawings and get him to sign a letter.

 

If he's not happy then it gets messy and expensive as you need a PWA Surveyor (or even three).

 

The details and example letters are in the guide.

Thank you.  It might be me not understanding the full impact and not could be that the steels are totally independent of his wall but just very close to it.  I appreciate your advice.

[Mootoo]

2 minutes ago, Temp said:

Following the procedure in the Guide to The Party Wall act also covers your arse if the neighbour changes his mind. 

Exactly this! 

[Mootoo]

5 minutes ago, Dee J said:

If you're on really good terms with your neighbour then I can't see how the party wall act would apply:

The Party Wall etc Act 1996 provides a framework for preventing and resolving disputes in relation to party walls, boundary walls and excavations near neighbouring buildings. A building owner proposing to start work covered by the Act must give adjoining owners notice of their intentions in the way set down in the Act.

Seeing as it's prime function is to manage relationships and avoid disputes. If you're both entirely happy about the development and there's planning consent then what else is needed. But I'm amazed your neighbour is so chill.

 

Irrespective of whether we are both on good terms or not from my understanding of the PWA it serves to cover all angles and protects him too.  As to you being amazed my neighbour is so chilled I guess it's a good job he's my neighbour and not you ?.  Thankfully I've worked with him to come to an agreement that suits us both.

[dpmiller]

if the steels are separate from his wall then they must sit on a footing of some kind surely?

[Temp]

And clad with something on the neighbours side of the steel?

[Gooman]

On 11/07/2019 at 20:22, Mootoo said:

Exactly this! 

 

"Gentlemen's" agreements are always dangerous. They don't protect either side from changing their mind. Specifically, it doesn't protect you from any future occupier raising objections about the work.

 

This might be someone who buys their property in future - or your neighbour might drop dead and their executors are unhappy about the work and its impact on the resale value of the property.

 

Written contracts make for good relationships. Don't scrimp on this. It could cost you big-time, but costs little (or even nothing) to do it right in the first case.