Permitted planning - moving a fence adjacent to a road

[Bob Loblaw]

I've read a lot of good information on here so thought I'd take the plunge and get collective thoughts on our project as this is the first time I've dealt with any renovations.  We would like to replace a wall with a fence to our boundary (at the 2m height limit) by the side of the house however we do have a path next to the boundary which then goes to a 2m emabankment which is 1m high and then the road. The road is 4.25m from the boundary. We've read the permitted planning rules and know the rule " If the fence would be over 1 metre high and next to a highway used by vehicles (or the footpath of such a highway)". My question is will I be in limits of the permitted planning rules regarding adjacency i.e is the footpath still considered part of the road even though its at quite a bit highr elevation and 2m away from the physical road? We'll go to planning to check but would like ideas from those with much greater experience than ourselves. Please see pictures attached to hopfeully add clarity to our situation (The wall as shown on the side would come down and replaced with a fence / gambions to the boundary at the same length.

 

Many thanks in advance 

 

Bob

[ProDave]

Very grey area.

 

In the old days you would definitely have needed PP when the definition used to be "between the building line and the highway"

 

Now it just mentions "adjacent" to the highway, but the "highway" includes the footpath.  So if you build it right next to the footpath, you would need pp.

 

Someone posted a similar case where it went to court and the ruling was when stood on the path, he could not touch the fence so it was rules as not being "adjacent" to the highway.

 

You could always do as your neighbour and plant a hedge.

 

I have a BIL in a similar sited house and he now has a mature Beech hedge all around his garden including around the side and around the entire front garden, and it has made a massive difference to the feel and usability of what was a tiny enclosed garden before.

[Ferdinand]

Notwithstanding aesthetic considerations, I do not think I see huge problems with REPLACING that from a Planning or PD point of view, because you already have the right to have a 6ft boundary there. Though you may need to apply, and council planners can bring in all sorts of things if they choose.

 

I can perhaps see complications is the brick wall was part of the ‘look and feel’ of the overall development eg if it was in the master plan.

 

It may also be a brick wall to block out road noise, as a wall will be better than a fence. So you potentially risk making your garden more noisy.

 

The distance from boundary etc concerns you have should not apply as it is a boundary wall not a house wall, and public land the other side. they mainly relate to security and safety of a private human neighbour.

 

Further, you would need to consider the mechanics and access to build it eg safety barriers on council land.

 

There may be an opportunity to explore arguing that it is not subject to planning by knocking say 2/3 off and putting part fence panels between pillars.

 

In any case, I wOuld try an informal conversation with the Council planners aboUt this. It is a BFO brick wall on a biggish thoroughfare, so they will find out about it anyway. Just phone up and ask for the duty planner.

 

(Personally I like walls or hedges, but I have avoided that as it was not your question).

 

Ferdinand

Edited July 5, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Temp]

I don't believe you need planning permission to replace a wall with a fence that is the same height and in the same position (unless there is an article 4 direction for the area or a planning condition).

 

If it's going to be nearer the road then I think very likely you would need planning permission if over 1m.

 

PS: I don't think the physical layout of the road and path makes any real difference. The highway probably extends right up to your property boundary anyway. They could in theory widen the road and move the footpath nearer. I have a wide grass verge in front of my house and a footpath that crosses the road and verge it at 90 degrees. Apparently the route of the footpath across the verge "isn't defined" because the whole verge is part of the highway so people can in theory walk, drive or park anywhere on it. 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Temp

[Bob Loblaw]

Many thanks for the responses so far and apologies if I wasnt clear in my first post, the land by the pavement (where the tree is) is ours and we'd like to take down the wall and effectively remove/replace it with another fence/wall alongside the path effictively increasing the back garden size to the boudndary.

 

[Moonshine]

50 minutes ago, Bob Loblaw said:

we'd like to take down the wall and effectively remove/replace it with another fence/wall alongside the path effectively increasing the back garden size to the boundary.

 

It wasn't clear (to me anyway), but i think that you are going to have to apply for planning, rather than permitted development.

 

Even then, it if a planning application i doubt that you would be able to permission, as based on the street images the existing wall ties in with the existing front facades of the houses to the rear, and the side of your own house.

 

I think that you will have a job on your hands to convince the planners to deviate from this line, though worth contacting them and seeing what their thoughts are.

[Ferdinand]

You will need to talk to Highways which could be either County if it is a classified road, or perhaps Local if not, to find out whether that bit of land is designated for widening the junction or the road etc. An application would find that out but it may be useful to know first.  Have the material ready to hand ie pic with line where you want your wall, and hopefully you can email it whilst on the phone and they would give enough of a comment for you on the spot.

 

Also potentially there could be services underneath it.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Gone West]

3 hours ago, Bob Loblaw said:

Many thanks for the responses so far and apologies if I wasnt clear in my first post, the land by the pavement (where the tree is) is ours and we'd like to take down the wall and effectively remove/replace it with another fence/wall alongside the path effictively increasing the back garden size to the boudndary.

 

I would do it in stages. Initially I would plant an identical hedge to your neighbours continuing it around the boundary of your property. If there are no complaints I would apply to replace the hedge with a 2m fence. If it was refused I would grow the hedge higher and see what happens. Presumably you could remove the wall at any time.

[Temp]

I agree with Peter.

 

3 hours ago, Bob Loblaw said:

Many thanks for the responses so far and apologies if I wasnt clear in my first post, the land by the pavement (where the tree is) is ours and we'd like to take down the wall and effectively remove/replace it with another fence/wall alongside the path effictively increasing the back garden size to the boudndary. 

 

 

That would need planning permission because its over 1m high. I think it would be difficult to get PP for a wall as most likely they will say a wall will look too massive. You could try for a 2m wall and agree to amend it to a 2m fence?

 

Failing that I think your best bet is a 1m high fence (no planning permission required) and a hedge to match the neighbour as Peter suggests.  Once it's 2m high you might get permission for a 2m wall but I doubt it. .

 

 

[ProDave]

Small point.

 

Looking at your rear boundary (wall) it appears the hedge alongside your neighbours front garden is already on your land?

 

If so instruct him to stop trimming that bit and you will take over that duty, and of course allow it to grow taller.

then you just have the hedge along the road to plant and grow then.

[Ferdinand]

1 hour ago, PeterStarck said:

I would do it in stages. Initially I would plant an identical hedge to your neighbours continuing it around the boundary of your property. If there are no complaints I would apply to replace the hedge with a 2m fence. If it was refused I would grow the hedge higher and see what happens. Presumably you could remove the wall at any time.

 

2.1m hedge, then put a green fence behind the hedge and keep quiet.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Many thanks for all the advice, we've gone for a pre-planning application to see that art of the possible and get an idea of what they deem to be "adjacent" is if we can't have a fence at the boundary. @ProDave yes the hedge is on our land and that might be a good point with respect to letting it grow if all else fails although we really don't want to go down the hedge route if possibly as I'm inherintly lazy ...many thanks all, now for the waiting game, I'll let you know the outcome if it's of any interest.

[Bob Loblaw]

We've gone down the full planning permission route for this and as we were going down that route thought we'd add the option of a summer house (in the application we've only stated a  UPVC Summerhouse of maximum dimensions of L - 3m, W - 3m, H - 2.5m.) They have come back with a couple of questions requesting existing & proposed elevations for Wall/Fence with scale bars and proposed floor plans & elevation of summer house with scale bars (which was highlighted in the site plan, but appears not to be sufficient.) This is our first dive into the planning world and has raised more questions I'd like to put to the wealth of knowledge on this forum before going back to the council.

 

1) Were fairly IT savvy so could you recommend any software to produce the drawings required or will I have to go down the prefessional route (I don't know how detailed these drawing needs to be except for it has to be to scale with scale bars so any advice would be greatly received?)

2) If I have to go to a professional, how much the ball park cost would be, it just seems like massive overkill for the project we're looking at.

3) With regard to the summerhouse do I have to detail the exact size of the one we're after (as we don't know yet and may not get one for a year or 2 until we know exactly what we want with the developed garden), as the origional application just stated maximum values we would have for a summerhouse which lies within current guidlines.

 

Many thanks in advance

 

Bob

 

 

[Ferdinand]

40 minutes ago, Bob Loblaw said:

We've gone down the full planning permission route for this and as we were going down that route thought we'd add the option of a summer house (in the application we've only stated a  UPVC Summerhouse of maximum dimensions of L - 3m, W - 3m, H - 2.5m.) They have come back with a couple of questions requesting existing & proposed elevations for Wall/Fence with scale bars and proposed floor plans & elevation of summer house with scale bars (which was highlighted in the site plan, but appears not to be sufficient.) This is our first dive into the planning world and has raised more questions I'd like to put to the wealth of knowledge on this forum before going back to the council.

 

1) Were fairly IT savvy so could you recommend any software to produce the drawings required or will I have to go down the prefessional route (I don't know how detailed these drawing needs to be except for it has to be to scale with scale bars so any advice would be greatly received?)

2) If I have to go to a professional, how much the ball park cost would be, it just seems like massive overkill for the project we're looking at.

3) With regard to the summerhouse do I have to detail the exact size of the one we're after (as we don't know yet and may not get one for a year or 2 until we know exactly what we want with the developed garden), as the origional application just stated maximum values we would have for a summerhouse which lies within current guidlines.

 

Many thanks in advance

 

Bob

 

 

 

1 - Perhaps Goog Sketch-up, or consider an online casual job site where you will get it for very little in a weekend. Someone will be able to recommend.

 

3 - Do it appropriately, and a summerhouse will not need Planning .. so you retain that option unless your PD Roghts have been abolished.

 

F

[Temp]

Some makers of summer houses probably have line drawings on their web site. Failing that scan a photo into a cad prog and draw over it on another layer. Something like the free Paint.NET from https://www.getpaint.net/ can do this part reasonably easily.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Temp

[Alex Kozlowski]

On 03/09/2019 at 12:59, Bob Loblaw said:

We've gone down the full planning permission route for this and as we were going down that route thought we'd add the option of a summer house (in the application we've only stated a  UPVC Summerhouse of maximum dimensions of L - 3m, W - 3m, H - 2.5m.) They have come back with a couple of questions requesting existing & proposed elevations for Wall/Fence with scale bars and proposed floor plans & elevation of summer house with scale bars (which was highlighted in the site plan, but appears not to be sufficient.) This is our first dive into the planning world and has raised more questions I'd like to put to the wealth of knowledge on this forum before going back to the council.

 

1) Were fairly IT savvy so could you recommend any software to produce the drawings required or will I have to go down the prefessional route (I don't know how detailed these drawing needs to be except for it has to be to scale with scale bars so any advice would be greatly received?)

2) If I have to go to a professional, how much the ball park cost would be, it just seems like massive overkill for the project we're looking at.

3) With regard to the summerhouse do I have to detail the exact size of the one we're after (as we don't know yet and may not get one for a year or 2 until we know exactly what we want with the developed garden), as the origional application just stated maximum values we would have for a summerhouse which lies within current guidlines.

 

Many thanks in advance

 

Bob

 

 

 

Hi 

 

I'm interested how did your planning application go? Did you get it approved in the end? 

 

It would be very helpful to all the others going full PP way. 

 

We've recently bought a house and we've got pretty much the same problem as you've had. Corner plot with a bit of land outside of already fenced garden touching a footpath. 

 

Can you attach some pictures as well please? 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Alex Kozlowski

[Temp]

Welcome to the forum

 

4 hours ago, Alex Kozlowski said:

 

Hi 

 

I'm interested how did your planning application go? Did you get it approved in the end? 

 

It would be very helpful to all the others going full PP way. 

 

We've recently bought a house and we've got pretty much the same problem as you've had. Corner plot with a bit of land outside of already fenced garden touching a footpath. 

 

Can you attach some pictures as well please? 

 

A highway can extend onto private land so that may explain why the fence isn't on your boundary already. You should check where the highway boundary is.

 

You can put a 1m high fence adjacent to the highway without planning permission. If you want a 2m high fence you need planning permission. This might be refused if it makes it harder for drivers to see oncoming cars or if it woukd be very out of keeping (not in the same style) with the area.

 

You don't need planning permission for a hedge.

 

[Alex Kozlowski]

Hi

 

Thank you for the reply. You've assured me in what I already know. I don't know how to check where is the highway boundary.

 

On the opposite side of the road houses have nearly 2m brick walls literally touching the pavement, but these were build together with houses.

 

I'll probably find out soon from the planners when we apply for a PP to build a house there...  

[Roundtuit]

22 minutes ago, Alex Kozlowski said:

I don't know how to check where is the highway boundary.

I rang our local highways authority and asked them.  Someone helpful checked the maps whilst I was on the phone and told me.  They claimed 1m of verge measured from the outer edge of the footpath, which I guess is where services generally run.  Suits me fine; I don't even charge them for mowing it ?

[Temp]

We have about 8m of highway verg between our boundary and the tarmac road. All of it is apparently part of the highway. If I didn't cut it then the council would let it all get overgrown with the exception of a 1m wide strip. The church next door has the same and several of us share cutting that.