What would be your wishlist for a kitchen/diner?

[Powerjen]

I am playing with designs and a kitchen diner at the sunniest end of the house is something we have always fancied and despite a tight budget think it is something we should invest in.  I was wondering what clever design tips and ideas people would recommend doing or any experiences/lessons learned from your own build? 

 

Thank you

[bassanclan]

Where is your garden/views?

Are those double doors coming out of a boiler room?

[AliG]

Can you lose the pillar by using beams, it really impacts on the space, it might cost more, but will likely give a better room. If not incorporate it into the island, see below.

 

Plan out what furniture you want to put in the room and see if it works. That space outside the mud room at 2.9m wide is a little narrow if you wanted to put a table there for example. I think if you made it slightly larger you could get well defined sitting and eating areas.

 

Personally I hate internal windows as it makes it look like you added something to the outside of the house without doing it properly. You could have another door and make the door/s into the kitchen glass to allow light into the hall. If you made the window the door into the room it would give a more open entrance into the room. At the moment you walk into the end of a cupboard. It would be a lot neater to have the cupboards go to the end of the wall.

 

An island is nice, but only if you have enough room, it looks like you are showing it only around 80cm from the hob. Imagine you are standing at the hob and someone wanted to get something out of the cupboards/drawers in the island behind you, you'd have to move out of the way. I would say you need at least 1.2m and ideally enough space to open things opposite to each other which is more like 1.4m. It might work better if it was a breakfast bar between the utility room and pillar. This also removes the pillar from the middle of the floor if you cannot get rid of it.

 

Roof lights are good, they bring in a lot of light.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ProDave]

Your boiler room is taking up half the south facing wall. That is a waste.

 

Put the boiler room where the kitchen is show, making it as slim as possible and have the kitchen on the south wall with windows looking out to the garden.

[AliG]

I did think about that, but that goes along with making that area wider and moving the door to where the window is.

[Powerjen]

5 minutes ago, bassanclan said:

Where is your garden/views?

Are those double doors coming out of a boiler room?

 

Hi @bassanclan, the garden runs around the back and sides of the house (the back of the house is where the N arrow is on the plan).  The house is set down in a dip so we have low retaining walls and sloping garden around the back and sides and then fields rising up from that.  Out front we have a quiet road 10ft from our front windows then fields beyond.  The double doors to the front are the old garage doors. The architect thought it would be nice to have them as an 'homage' to the old garage and there is a new front door behind them which enters into the boot room and then into the kitchen.

[AliG]

So I am guessing that part of the south wall is the current garage wall hence the width. You won't want to change that as you would need new foundations also.

 

Considering you said you are on a tight budget, I guess you probably also want to keep the pillar, in which case I would definitely be thinking of moving the island to be a breakfast bar with the pillar at the end of it and moving the door to where the window it. Pillar in the middle of the floor would absolutely drive me crazy.

[caliwag]

Think the island unit should be elliptical so you don't bang into the corners. I think the kitchen will be a bit short on storage. But I would fill in one of the spaces next to the column with a full height storage unit, perhaps double sided but with glazed doors, for transparency. But only 300 deep storage for 'everyday stuff. There's never enough storage in kitchens for working stuff, especially after you take up space with fridge/freezer/dishwasher, and I hate wall cupboards...they always seem to make a kitchen appear smaller!

[Ferdinand]

The double door thing sounds a little ‘nice in theory but not to live with for the next 20 years’.

 

Would it not be easier to solve the boiler room issue by not having any heating whatsoever as an homage to how they lived when it was originally built? So no need for a boiler room. ?

Edited June 13, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Powerjen]

@AliG you are absolutely right in both things - garage and pillar and thank you for your comments.  I did look at moving the door to the internal window (it's actually quite nice as it is an old tall thin ?Victorian one) and extending the kitchen. My problem was that if I kept the patio doors where they were on the plan having a door opposite them could take cold air from outside straight up the hall into the rest of the house, so it went back to keeping the internal window.  The size of the boiler room could be made smaller making more space for the kitchen diner? I think I may have over estimated the post it note for the island unit, it does look rather huge! I had wondered about doing a run of units/breakfast bar between the pillar and the wall or if I made the boiler room smaller there would be more room for a table in the back of the old garage? I had seen on another post about having a mini coffee serving area which could maybe be incorporated into that pillar perhaps.

[caliwag]

Well does act as a mud room, which you can understand

[Powerjen]

13 minutes ago, caliwag said:

Think the island unit should be elliptical so you don't bang into the corners. I think the kitchen will be a bit short on storage. But I would fill in one of the spaces next to the column with a full height storage unit, perhaps double sided but with glazed doors, for transparency. But only 300 deep storage for 'everyday stuff. There's never enough storage in kitchens for working stuff, especially after you take up space with fridge/freezer/dishwasher, and I hate wall cupboards...they always seem to make a kitchen appear smaller!

 

Hi @caliwag thank you for your ideas. Was it you that had posted elsewhere about having mini coffee area? If it was then thanks because it is an idea I want to try incorporate. The full height glass unit would help hide the pillar I like the idea of having cutlery etc away from the kitchen area as they just take up space and mean there is a flurry of activity at dishing up time laying the table and with dogs and old people I don't want any accidents happening!  The elliptical island is also excellent for safety. I could just change the top on the freestanding one I currently have to save cash.

[Powerjen]

19 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

The double door thing sounds a little ‘nice in theory but not to live with for the next 20 years’.

 

Would it not be easier to solve the boiler room issue by not having any heating whatsoever as an homage to how they lived when it was originally built? So no need for a boiler room. ?

 

Being old farm hands cottages I could pop a cow in there instead and get hot milk and fuel for the stove at the same time.

[caliwag]

Yes, the coffee station idea was something we worked into the full height 300mm unit, with glazed or frosted doors btw. You are thinking in a working efficient way...how you are keen to use a new kitchen. Try to remember the best and worst aspects of previous kitchens. I don't think there are rules...never enough work space and never the right storage...good luck with it. btw I like the idea of a window at the end of a corridor, but then I do like internal windows, but builders tend to close them off by default

[Powerjen]

Thanks @ProDave. The boiler is an oil one so I thought it would have to be on an outside wall, though I may have misunderstood your idea. I can probably make that boiler room smaller so there is more space in the ?dining area behind it.  I would like to have the mudroom nearer the bathroom at the rear but I cant really see of way of doing it without compromising the kitchen diner area. Though I am still thinking it through.  I would have to look at permitted development but maybe an outside porch might act as a mini boot room. I will go and see what the regs are. Thanks for challenging my ideas

[Powerjen]

6 minutes ago, caliwag said:

Yes, the coffee station idea was something we worked into the full height 300mm unit, with glazed or frosted doors btw. You are thinking in a working efficient way...how you are keen to use a new kitchen. Try to remember the best and worst aspects of previous kitchens. I don't think there are rules...never enough work space and never the right storage...good luck with it. btw I like the idea of a window at the end of a corridor, but then I do like internal windows, but builders tend to close them off by default

 

I would love to see photos if you have any of the coffee station, you sound like you really figured it all out. Here is the old window we have. It is one of the nice things in the house before it got butchered by the last owner.

[Powerjen]

If anyone has an opinion about where the best place to have a wood burning stove would be I would be grateful. I would usually pick a corner but then that probably uses up a sofa space. It also means I need to decide if people will sit and look out to the garden or in to the kitchen... as it could go by the pillar. Perhaps in the winter when it's on people will turn and face the fire and when it's not on they will face the garden. Were hoping to tie it into the heating system, does that have a bearing on where it should be located does anyone know? Thanks again.

[caliwag]

That's great, thanks. Internal windows have immeasurable qualities...transparency, filtered light, sight of other activities, view to where you're going or have been! Sorry no photos of coffee station...I worked it in for a neighbours project but I'm no longer there, sorry. Just big enough for your chosen machine etc

[Declan52]

The pillar will have to be engineered out. It will make a massive difference to how that room works.

I would definitely try to move the boiler room. If you go something like this then it opens the space up more and will let much much natural light come in from the south facing Windows.

 So you end up with a L shape for the kitchen with the island as big as you can get but still have 1m min all round both sides the units are on. Or you could extend more units along the boiler room wall into a U shape and come across where the island is on my pic. Then you can have a wider worktop to allow a seating area.

How many units and how big your island can be will depend on how much you can squeezee the boiler room. If you can get it to 2m wide this will give you 4.3m to play with. At present you have 3.5m which will just be enough to get an island in with enough space to walk round. If you leave 1m each side plus the kitchen unit that gives you a width of 2.6m so your island can only be 900mm wide. If you make the island wider then the space either side is reduced and will feel cramped. 

The stove could go where the green box is so it's easier to vent outside.

 

[Ferdinand]

I don't understand how coffee can fit into a single full height unit; it requires at least 1m of worktop plus a decent sized cupboard. Coffee is a more akin to a dressing room than a wardrobe.

 

On the topic, a couple of qs @Powerjen.

 

1 - Where will the main axis for people coming into your house be? The door -> Bedroom -> corridor is a warren. Moving the staircase would help that. A main entrance through a mudroom does not really suffice imo.

2 - What is the long term purpose of "Bedroom 1"? What is it for in 10 years time?

3 - What are you going to do in your kitchen-lounge-diner? How does it need to be zoned and to what extent subtly subdivided? You basically have a 20ft by 30ft space - what do you need to fit in there? Is there a list?

4 - Re: oil boiler. Do you have no gas, then?

 

F

Edited June 13, 2019 by Ferdinand

[AliG]

If you want to move the door I wouldn't worry about it being opposite the french doors at all. If there was cold air being directly opposite wouldn't make a big difference and presumably you are only likely to open the french doors when the weather is nice. Cold air blowing into another room is not a consideration, after all you could close the door.

 

I too wondered what the layout is. Is that the lounge at the right and you have to go through it to the kitchen? I guess just the compromise necessary in a cottage.

 

How tight is the budget? I would guess that the cost of extra steel to avoid the pillar is maybe £2-3000, but I am no SE.

[Powerjen]

4 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

I don't understand how coffee can fit into a single full height unit; it requires at least 1m of worktop plus a decent sized cupboard. Coffee is a more akin to a dressing room than a wardrobe.

 

On the topic, a couple of qs @Powerjen.

 

1 - Where will the main axis for people coming into your house be? The door -> Bedroom -> corridor is a warren. Moving the staircase would help that. A main entrance through a mudroom does not really suffice imo.

2 - What is the long term purpose of "Bedroom 1"? What is it for in 10 years time?

3 - What are you going to do in your kitchen-lounge-diner? How does it need to be zoned and to what extent subtly subdivided? You basically have a 20ft by 30ft space - what do you need to fit in there? Is there a list?

4 - Re: oil boiler. Do you have gas?

 

F

Ooh @Ferdinand, you always challenge my thinking and that's good, though I am totally out of my depth with all this but it is an invaluable exercise! So here goes...

 

1)  We are antisocial, we don't have many visitors. But the front door within the mudroom would be the official one for visitors to come to. We will also retain the old front door for our parents side of the house. It is in a fenced front garden which we had earmarked as a garden area if we ever rent out that side. Then they don't have anything to do with the back of the house where we work and they have their own private area. The new front door won't be fenced off and will be pretty much straight onto the road. We will use the double doors into the kitchen diner as our access, which is why I am literally just thinking about having an external porch on it which we could dump coats and boots before going into the nice kitchen diner area. It will also act as a void to help with heat loss (I almost sound like I know what I am talking about). PD says you can have a porch of 3m2. Do you mean the warren bit is the front door area?

 

2 (and 1).  To carry on from Q1.  To try save money I am looking at not developing the dining room/guest room off my parents kitchen (QS quoted 21k) and giving them Bedroom 1 instead. I have also tried to squeeze a toilet under the stairs to save money and space.  I have got a new doorway into the hall so it can be accessed from their end of the house (which could be the warren) and when it is no longer needed for them we will block that doorway up and open up the old doorway into the back hall and have it as a bedroom for us again (then we won't need to go upstairs if we are not able). It then takes that apartment from a two to a one bed rental, giving us back a room.  Giving parents Bedroom 1 means I have to get a dormer on the upstairs for a bedroom for us (we would prefer to sleep upstairs to give us some space if we possibly can). If we can't afford the dormer I might have to spend 21k anyway and we may have to sleep in Bedroom 1.

 

3)  I see it as an eating area and a chilling out area. Might be the odd jigsaw getting done on the table between meals with one of those roll up jigsaw mats. It will be the best room in the place so expect we will all be in it but then parents will go off to their side at night to watch their tv shows and hubby and I will stop in it - probably watching tv till sleep time. I have Post Its of current furniture I have been moving about, one is big corner sofa which would either fit on the boiler room/outside wall or in the corner by the bathroom. I think the table . might be better by the boiler room though so corner sofa will be by the bathroom.

 

4)  We don't have mains gas. We had a thermaflow electric boiler in our old house and we won't be doing that again! We have an electric aga in the kitchen which was converted from oil. We would like to be able to get the wood stoves hooked up to the hot water if we can.

 

Apologies for the essay, but thank you for your help!

[caliwag]

Ferd...you would have to design the unit to allow for your chosen machine. There's machines out there around 300 high...domestic not commercial affairs. look at Dualit/De longhi for example.

[Powerjen]

37 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

The pillar will have to be engineered out. It will make a massive difference to how that room works.

I would definitely try to move the boiler room. If you go something like this then it opens the space up more and will let much much natural light come in from the south facing Windows.

So you end up with a L shape for the kitchen with the island as big as you can get but still have 1m min all round both sides the units are on. Or you could extend more units along the boiler room wall into a U shape and come across where the island is on my pic. Then you can have a wider worktop to allow a seating area.

How many units and how big your island can be will depend on how much you can squeezee the boiler room. If you can get it to 2m wide this will give you 4.3m to play with. At present you have 3.5m which will just be enough to get an island in with enough space to walk round. If you leave 1m each side plus the kitchen unit that gives you a width of 2.6m so your island can only be 900mm wide. If you make the island wider then the space either side is reduced and will feel cramped. 

The stove could go where the green box is so it's easier to vent outside.

 

 

Hi @Declan52 thank you for your input. Wow, that is some space. I have no engineering knowledge but the wall you are saying to remove is the end of the house so load bearing. Would that not make it a nightmare to do and costly?  The oil tank is supposed to be in the garden by the proposed boiler room with an exhaust out of the external wall for the boiler itself. The exhaust for the boiler on your plan would come out of the front of the house by the new front doorway?

[Powerjen]

We will need to add a car port along the outside wall at a later date to get our infirm parents in and out of the car/house in the dry so whilst that aspect is south facing they aren't going to be enjoying much in the way of a view.