Gus Potter

Some things to try just to rule stuff out. Ruling stuff out is a good way of approaching a problem. You have 185m loop. I would disconnect that and first gently connect up an air compressor to the return end. Gently blow the water in the pipe into a bucket, see if you are getting sediment and if so what kind. then blast it. That may be enough to clear any stubborn gunk. At least then you know if the pipe is clear. Then connect mains water to the return and back flow.. DO NOT do this on the flow side as you could make matters worse. Check the mains water inlet pressure and collect the water in a bucket. What is the pipe internal diameter you have? if you know that then you have some data on the loop that is maybe a problem. Now you can back calculate the loop characteristics. You can then reduce the mains water to a lower pressure and see what happens. Once you have handle on that you can then see what you may or may not have to do to the rest of your system. It could be that you long loop is ok, it just needs a good clean out! Remeber that as a long loop the flow at the return end would be diminished so gunk could have accumlated over time. Other question is.. did it work before you got your new boiler? Did it work fine when you first installed the system?

Good question as an introduction. And this is even better! @Rick "Gus and I have debated this before. My position is you should design the loops to output the heat you need at very low temps. " "But I wouldn't deliberately add extra loops if it throws off your heat output calcs, etc. " I can see that my approach requires some reasoning in response to the very good points made by many (not just Simon and Rick above in response to my "philistine approach". I'm going to have a go at setting out my stall. I say from time to time that I did my first UFH a long time ago, long before BH and when is was almost for the "whacky inventor in the UK" To start as a bit of background. About 30 years ago I built a house out in the country. There was a guy (Clive) who was building a house about 1/4 of a mile away that had come over from Scandinavia with the UFH idea. At the time it was innovative in the UK. I looked at the complicated controls, could not be sourced in the UK at the time, even the pipe diameter and thought.. I'll simplify it, build my own manifolds out of soldered Yorkshire joints, got some pumps and a blending valve off the shelf and installed all of that into timber suspended floors, ground and first, all coupled up to an oil fired boiler.. basically a big blow torch in a twin walled steel box that had water in it. I could not afford "high end" but knew and believed in the principle of UFH. Now it worked ok but when it got really cold, which was quite often -5 deg over a week, often dropping to minus 15 deg overnight, I ended up having to crank the flow temperature though the UFH pipes up to 60 C. The carpets did not self destruct and the tiled floors hung in there! I learnt that floor finishes if slowly conditioned and installed properly are often more forgiving than you think. Incedentally my pal (Clive) down the road died and it was only about 5 years back that I stopped look after his widows system (500 m square house). It has twin LPG boilers, a low loss header and so on. Once I moved into my own self build.. could walk about with my socks off I became absolutely hooked on UFH. Make no mistake I love it and am a big fan. I'm not such a big fan of some of the stuff on BH.. it's too complicated! Since then (Clive) I've been involved in UFH, done some for myself and for Clients. The technology has improved a lot, especially boiler innovation, controls weather compensation and so on.. I've experimented on my own house.. tested ideas on my own houses, made mistakes. I've also learnt a lot about FE analysis, the maths behind it and it's limitations... and know it's to be taken as a modelling tool... although the folk that have a financial interest in selling say UFH .. it's designed by FE so must be right! That is bollocks.. it's a tool, a good one at times, but it must be sense checked. In my day job now I'm an SE and designer, still learning every day! Much of my work is domestic. I'm exposed to how domestic Clients work with builders. In this context take the money and Client / Builder expectation. These differer. Expectation of quality control on site differs, drawing and contract interpretation. On BH there are good comments about, testing, site supervision..and if you do this then you can have a leaner UFH design. But the reality is, from having done this for a long time, it is that what you think you are going to get as a self builder often does not get realised on site. The self builder is 95% often not to blame.. the industry probably is. 1/ My general approach: To digest this I'm going to split the UFH into two different elements and generalize a bit for sake of arguement / presentation. 1/ What is in say a screed / concrete slab or timber floor. If something goes wrong with that then the cost of access and repair is high and disruptive to finishes not least. As a correlation. Say I have my SE hat on, I design a timber frame and the windows have timber lintels on cripple studs. But the detailing at the cill causes hidden water to leak back into the kit, rots it and things start to move. That is often going to cost a lot to fix. If you then think.. well it's fair to ask the UFH pipes to perform for the same length of time as the structure.. 50 -60 years. To add more weight to this. What about your drain pipes in the house.. is it not fair to ask that they will also hang in there for 50 years? Or do you want your UFH pipe to last for say a guarentee period of 7 -10 years like double glazing units.. what about young kids that may later buy your house, is that for them to sort out, or inherit? Now know that in my first house.. 30 years ago the UFH pipes are still fine, not breaking down, getting brittle.. and that is with 30 year old pipe technology! Point.. is UFH like double glazing or an important "built in" part of the structure? Boilers, pumps etc above the floor can be easily changed. We may want to change them as more efficeint and simpler controls come on the market? 2/ What happens on site: I can see on BH that some are saying.. if you control the works, supervise, test, make sure you are draconian with the folk installing the UFH pipes, checking all their bend radius ( see UFH pipe datail), you have a fighting chance. Some on BH are asking about running UFH pipes over concrete slab movement / sawn joints, some say the UFH pipes can stretch a bit. I can tell you as someone who designs this slab / screed stuff that this is false prophecy as you are eroding the factor of "safety" and each time you do that you risk UFH failure. Your UFH pipes are not designed to be "stretched by concrete / screed movement or over bent! But the reality is for most self builders is that you are going to have to trust the folk on site.. and accept that some pipes may be bent a bit tight, stood on, overlapped and get crushed at the over lap. When laying screed or concrete the pipes should be under air pressure, say 6.0 bar, not just to make sure someone does not make a hole in them but also they expand by microns and this give them a bit of play at the return bends, prevents further stretching as a pipe is already stretched on the outside of the bend when it gets bent. The pipe manufacturer's declare their product performance.. but do not include your concrete / screed.. why should they.. it's your job to do this not theirs.. they need to sell pipe and fittings and are not liable for you concrete / screed design. Point.. your ordinary self builder needs to design something that can be drawn so the folk on site can understand what they have to do. Areas that are important need to be highlighted on the drawings. Pipe centres need to be the same. If the UFH drawings are presented in this way then Contractors will say.. that looks easy.. keps the cost down. You the Client will be able to identify any anomolies. Thus by all means use loop cad.. but think about buildability, the harder it is the more you will pay and maybe not get get what you think you are paying for. Now as an SE / UFH philistine and just having done stuff like this for a while. If you put in extra loops it covers you in part.. for shit that happens or a bit of dodgy pipe. If you look at the extra cost of using smaller loops its not that much. Say 15- 20% on the pipe install tops, clipping them and the extra length getting back to the manifold. It also means you don't have loops crossing concrete joints and so on. 3/ What happens when the UFH pipes come above floor level into the plant room: (a) More loops means a larger manifold, that is one of the down sides to my appraoch. Or you can say.. if in one room if the loops are roughly the same length connect them all together before the manifold as the flows will be roughly the same. You don't have to use the redundancy you have built in, it's just there if you need it. (b) Now since I started 30 years a go I can see massive innovation in control technology.. but it's very complex. But the big eplephant is the room is ongoing replacement part technology and now often the software that you need to support this. This can come at a scary cost as replacement part costs escalate.. it's the law of supply and demand. I have a Client that has bought a house recently that is filled with a fortunes worth of home automation.. he is ripping it all out as there is no manual on how to work it and the software is not updatable. I need to digress and reference @JohnMo John is an exponent of the open system that is compatible with modern systems.. This is incredibly elegant, clever, few parts needed other than an intelligent boiler. I almost think John has come full circle and back to how I started.. but in a more informed, evidenced based way and even more cost effective! (c) If we design at the moment on the least loops (using the least pipe and sod all other considerations) basis that are built into the structure then we are closing off our options for the decades ahead. Yes we will still have them but @SimonD that is partly what I mean by redundancy. The UFH design needs to be homogenous. @SimonD" I'm from the school of calculating heat load requirements in the room and designing emitters to satisfy this at a low temperature as possible and avoiding external controls as much as possible although I recognise and use room influence where needed. This approach does use the method of designing both radiators and ufh to the demand of each space." Simon.. that is OK. I can do that also.. but there is much more to the equation and that is why I'm trying to encourage folk to look at the whole life cycle. @-rick- I think and agree with you but you are only half way there in terms of what you do on a self build and how you can realistically control what happens on site. For all.. I've seen some commercial sites with UFH.. millions spent.. and they work even less better than many self builds! 4/ Use of software: Now I know that many on BH rely on software.. but there is nothing like getting a bit of basic knowledge to enable you to do a sense check. I'll maybe write another time about how you do that. As an SE I do some fag packet sums.. but before that I just look at the drawings.. you do the same with UFH.. look where the big areas of glazing are, volumes and where the building is more or less insulated. 5/ What are you setting out to achieve: Well you can be the theorist, look to save every penny on the gas / electric bill and treat it as a hobby. That's ok by me. But my experience is that that hobby will start to cost you more and more as parts become worn or software is redundant. My personal view is that UFH is still something that yes needs to function to heat the house.. but it's also a luxery. Once you have it you realise that the furniture is always warm.. if you have a leather sofa it's not cold, house plants thrive, the air currents in the house are less noticeable, your linen in the drawer is dry.. but not too dry, I could go on. But if you have a family member that is feeling unwell or you just want to have a hot zone then more loops make sense. You may change say in 20 years time the wal layout.. you want to make that easy. This is redundancy. You may be a doggy person.. always leave a cold spot! DSome folk want a traditional panty.. leave the heating out in there. You may want to sell the house in the future and the valuer turns up and says.. does you heating actually comply with the regs? You may just be wanting a UFH that works ok for you now.. look fancy and don't really care about any future owner? 6/ To conclude: I'm fully supportive of UFH. I'm not so supportive of folk that "design by calculation" alone. I can produce calculations that may show an element is ok, safe.. but that is not best design. Best design is about marrying elements into the rest of the design.. called holistic design. Here good holistic design is about getting the best you can out of the money you have. Self building is just that.. we get to have something you can't buy off the shelf. Some on BH are driven by calculation, trying to get a home that is most energy efficient on paper..the day after completion. I push back at this and say.. in real life say ten years down the road it is unlikely to work out the way you think at the moment.

Ah! .. as they say "recollections may vary" . Your enquiry is perfectly justified, evidenced based.. on their figures. It's a mixed bag. It's a fascinating / frustrating subject. Why can't they just give me a straight answer? I was in the past involved in bringing to the market cold formed steel portal frames. Testing and so on. Getting accreditation costs a fortune. A product supplier often has to balance the extent of testing vs how much of the product they are going to sell, the volumes, profit margin and so on. Once you can see under the bonnet ("unter der Motorhaube"?) then I think that UK suppliers are no worse / better than our European counterparts. I'm actually involved with a European supplier at the moment and they are exhibiting the same behavoir. At the end of the day if in doubt over size your radaitors. The radiator itself will cost more but the pipe work should be roughly the same size and the labour cost to install a slightly larger radiator should be the same or nearby. All the best.. but at the end of the day they have to look good, when you sit with your feet up and enjoying the fruits of your hard work.

If you have never played about with this kind of stuff before it is complicated. The main thing is to get a grasp of the basic thoery. The read round about, manufacture's data, BH posts. Sometimes you may think that it is even more confusing. But then go back to the beginning again and you'll find that things start to fall into place. You may have to itterate more than once. The read around concept is very helpfull as you discover other information that you can use on other aspects of the build, even if not applicable for the element you are considering. Keep talking to your builder and designer! Remember that they too may not have done something like this before. You will get there!.. and once you do and get something buildable you'll look back and often say.. well that was easy after all but it was a hard job to get to "easy". Also, you'll know once the job is finished that you ended up with a good solution.. quite satisfaction.

Ok many will disagree with me but here is my take on it. I did my first UFH heating system when many here were in short pants. I'm now a designer. My appoarch is pragmatic and absolutely driven by what is achievable on site, buildablity and cost driven. I honestly despair when I see folk trying to desing pipe layouts room by room! I can go on at length but it is complete bonkers! Thoery is taking over reality. To start. You are going to install pipes in a screed say and that has to be made as simple as possible. You want someone that is going to do this right, that is experienced and they will need a labourer. Take the experienced person at £300 a day and a good labourer that is going to uncoil the pipes and and not be a bit hung over, (kink them) at say at "£120.00 a day. So the labour is £420 a day. Save a day and that extra can get you more pipes.. for 50 years! Now to save labour and reduce risk its easier to make all the pipes at the same centres. Design for the nearly worst case. In real life the concrete guy turns up and may squash a pipe. You won't know. So you want some more loops as a bit of redundancy. There is a thread about how folk cock stuff up.. take my advice and avoid this scenario. Of course I'm not going to be BH angel of the month but best to be honest and give it to you straight about how things often work out on site for self builders. Yes you may think that you will be up to site checking everything.. but that is often wishfull thinking! Even then ask do you really know what you are checking.. do you have the experience / constructionknowledge to know how to argue if you find something wrong? At the end of the install you want something that has some contingency built in. But if you consider the labour saving vs the extra length of pipe it is a good balance of risk when you consider that the pipes need to last 50 years. As an SE that is used to balancing real life cost vs risk, and done UFH long before BH was even invented, I must say that much stuff you see on BH about folk trying to save a few quid is frankly complete pish! But it's not my money! My advice is to install plenty and easily buildable spare capactity in the floor and once the pipes pop up you can play with your controls to your hearts content. It's a good apporach as boiler and design technology develops.. to have spare capacity in the floor slab.. even if you don't need it right now. Put in plenty loops as a guard against the builder catching you out or say in the heat of battle you are doing the screed concrete your self.. you can easily miss a trick here. Don't think for a minute that while it looks great on paper.. on site when the concrete is coming you will likely not have the experience to say to the concrete guys,, hang on.. the may bully you and play to your wallet. So to finish.. I say to many armchair techy folk that are trying to refine UFH pipe layouts.. stop having a laugh and lets look as what happens on site and the labour cost of fannying about with different pipe spacing. Many folk on BH end up moving walls or end up with a diferent kitchen desing layout. Self building is hard enough without getting over enthused about some hot water pipes in the floor.. keep it simple and that way you'll save on labour and reduce you risk of something going wrong. That's my view in the round.

That length of loop is bonkers! But if in the floor it is what it is. Question is.. is that loop near an external wall or not and if so.. by how much and is the cold wall on the upside of the loop or the cooler side? Next is does this matter? I know many are not keen on my rough and ready approach to UFH. But they will realise 5 - 10 years down the road when they are spending hand over fist to keep it working! or maybe want to sell! Now if you look at many posts on BH there is my view on a high reliance on software.. but pretty much none on BH know how that works! they blindly trust.. they certainly don't know that FE models are and often widely wrong. As an SE Fe is subject to lots of scrutiny as it often down right dangerous! The IStructE has many papers on this.. it's a great tool if treated with caution, a very handy aid! Ah but there is an upside. The first thing is to recognise that we have not lost the skill to be able to teach ourselves. When I went to uni at 40 was in tears on my first day.. I clocked that my educators were actually teaching me how to teach myself! You can only appreciate that when you go to higher education in later life. Yes we are a bit slower.. but also faster as we have the life experience to be able to identify what we need to learn in the context of the problems we face. Mike: Is the black line your actual room temperature? If so that does not reflect real life? What room was that in?

Ah, that is a bit embarrassing. Fault lies at my end.. I should have explained in a better way. Blame is being a bit harsh on yourself. Ask and reflect. How much were you expected to know when you started? Evaluate how much you have learnt, take pride in that, and yes don't let it weigh on you. I'm making some posts that reflect my own experience. From a novice self buider to an SE / Designer that chips in here. I've made some horrible mistakes when running a contracting business! But at the time I did not know any better, I just did the best I could with the knowledge I had at the time. Now this thread is about.. hind sight and mental health to be blunt.. but also about trying to see how you get out of the woods at times when the world turns to shite. I'm chipping in as I am fortunate enough to see it from both sides.. as a past self builder myself and now on what you may call "the other side of the fence".

I had a loom at this for my own house as wanted soemthing similar. True but what I cloked was this. @Anneker, I'm going to be a gent and say you are not as old as I. When I came back from Kenya to complete my secondary educuation Scotland was cold.. but the school really did have some real cast iron radiators. From memory the fins were about 150 mm thick and oval. The flow went in the top and out the bottom. The modern equivalent (replica) has the flow in the bottom and out also at the base. To make it work (modern column radiator) you need to fit a baffle at the inlet at the base.. which basically makes it almost work like a modern radiator. Now the baffles are not perfect hence the likely discrepancy you see. Architectural radiators need to make a compromise between performance and design look.. there is no free lunch. I would if I was you chose the thing you like, over size it a bit, say by 20%, fit a thermostatic valve. Make sure you have a good diameter flow and return pipe to it. In the round all this may cost you £100 quid more but I bet the paint on the walls is going to cost you more than that? Keep posting! Gus

And that sir is the fun of it.. play away. I love this stuff. But have not taken time to really study your info. Firstly though. Your building is going to take time to stabalise.. not just the soil dumpling but the exteral walls. The moisture levels and the temperature in the dumplig below your insulation will have to settle into the new regime. Are you moving furniture about, changing rugs on the floor? Have you taken your socks off and just walked about in bare feet? Well technically yes. But in real life I've heated floor slabs by accident by a mile with flows in the pipes up to 60 -70C.. but the flooring was laid to compensate for this kind of accident as I have a gas boiler.. accidents do happen? and I'm after all a UFH philistine. Put it in.. lots of short loops for redundancy, make it buildable.. That plant room is a bit of a dream space wise.. you lucky sod! From the graph I think I can see that no flows go above 40C?

True but BH should be for both sexes of which there are only two biological ones. There was a Mens shed in Glasgow but funding was cut. I do think this thread is a revalation.. it's got folk talking. For all posting about the hard times you have gone through.. see if there was more of this then maybe you could have felt more supported, for many its too late but for folk starting out at least try it.. you have nothing to lose! You still have had to put in the hard graft, learn about building.. but maybe without the overstress.

This is a great point, I'm surprised also as insulated plasterboard is not tested for this, in fact many bodies have realised that this does not work!

@Jammy5 Three story building, advised fire rated cavity closers on all openings. Are they really required or will normal insulated cavity closers suffice? I'm going to have a go at this at a basic SE/ practical level which might help folk, no matter where you live in the UK, to get their head round this stuff a bit. I'll start with masonry cavity wall construction. Timber frame is much more complex and I've not covered it here. Please excuse my spelling / grammer as it's at the end of the day. But to start: 1/ One of the key concepts for fire design is that it can be split into two stages.. and that is where many folk on BH find it hard to get their head round things when looking at the regs. The following is just a rough summary, but for the newcomer I hope it gives you a bit of an insight. Stage one: (a) We give warning to the occupants of smoke, flame / heat..these are your smoke and heat detectors, this indicates you need to get out the house. (b) On taller houses we need to recognise that there may be disabled people, so we need things like protected stairs / floors. (c) All that happens, occupants are safe and the insurer's pick up the tab. Stage two: The fire service attend. They first ask.. is everyone out? Their next job is to not to protect your property, (as of course you are insured) it's to assess whether your burning house is going to set fire to the rest of the street and put other folks lives at risk. The regs are founded on the fire of London in 1666, I kid you not! https://www.london-fire.gov.uk/museum/london-fire-brigade-history-and-stories/fires-and-incidents-that-changed-history/the-great-fire-of-london/ Now the fire service then need to assess how close they can get to your house without it suddenly collapsing on them. And this is where the regs have in interest. A 3 story masonry house ( 2 floors + an attic often relies on the fact that the floors stabalise the higher walls for example. Now you may legitimately ask.. but there are many town houses like this.. why do I need to close my cavities..ok this is supposed to be fun so and humour is welcome! The fundamental difference is that on Victorian or earlier houses the walls were often solid. In the latter day with cavity masonry the cavities were closed off by returning the inner masonry leaf with a DPC against the outer leaf. But now we are wanting to stop that thermal bridge so the cavity is open at the window reveals and over the head. @Jammy5, now you could ask.. why can't I do this.. leave the cavity exposed as I'm filling the wall with insulation. Well the insulation could not be that fire proof. If it is you are going to have to prove that it is equivalent to a closed cavity with a proper and tested material. You'll struggle to to this and you'll also need a fire engineer.. they will likely tell you.. don't waste your money! You ask.. it seems ok to me. But to reinforce my point. Any cavity acts as a chimney and draws.. this excacerbates the development of fire. That fire can shoot up the cavity and compromise the floors etc that are providing lateral stability to the walls. If that happens the walls can fall on the fire brigade. Things like posi joists are designed to hold day to day working loads with some basic fire protection only, unless specifically detailed = money. Solid timbers are bit more forgiving.. provided the connections hold up. Now in the old days folk had few furnishings, there was no plastic, kids toys and appliances say. In a modern house what we call the "fire load" is much increased.. that is the stuff that maintains not just the duration of the fire but also it's intensity at times. In summary you can see why BC and designers are saying.. you need fire rated cavity closing.. and as a benchmark lets use / set that against the traditional way of closing off a cavity wall by returning the masonry. So hopefully that has given you all and understanding about what we are trying to do and it will let you see behind the curtain when looking at the regs in your particular part of the UK.

Hiya. Thanks for posting the drawings. I've had a quick first look.. need to digest more, but it's been along day so far. As others have said the level of drawing information required to get BC approval varies depending on where you are in the UK. In Scotland you would not get approval based on this level of drawing / design information. At a first glance, I would look at.. ok you have BC approval. What do we need to communicate to the builder to enable them to price and for you to tie them down without incurring extras.. or them going off an doing their own thing. If you paid for a set of drawings and the deal was for that alone then that bargin is concluded? If you want a set of drawings that a builder can use and give you a bit of price certainty then these are not enough.

It is indeed, incapacitating at times. How did you guess that correctly? Self building / renovating is a big undertaking. From my own perspective I've experienced stress (like most folk), from many aspects over my life in building. From leaving college, running a small local contracting business, to reinventing myself as an SE / Designer. I've learnt to accept that stress comes with pretty much any job. I suppose the big question is.. is it worth the hassle? But it's much harder for self builders / renovators as often the pressure comes from areas that you are less experienced in dealing with, this amplifies the stress. This could be financial, technical, managing contractors, the physical effort (makes you tired being on your feet all day).. I could keep adding to this list. Many on BH are sucessful in their own carear market.. must be to get the cash together in the first place! But the point here is that in the run up to a build and during you often face an onslaught of problems that you have never encountred before, even in your day job, that just overwhelms you. You recognise that there is a gap in your building knowledge and to get your head around that is often a steep learning curve and then time acts against you. Unless you know you way around the building trade then there is the "language" problem. You have to learn a bit about that and lots before you sign a contract. The pressure is massive and few folk navigate this perfectly. It's not often the technical diffculty.. many members would take this in their stride due to their life experience if they are considered in isolation.. it's just the volume and the fact that they (technical stuff) all pile up at once.. you can feel you are circling the plughole! Often it is due to everyone else (designers / builders / the banks and every other person that is involved) that seems to be nipping your head / not doing what they are supposed to! You expect that in good faith your professionals will actually do what you as a domesctic Client are reasonably able to expect, or have been lead to believe. Ok. To sum up.. don't feel at any time you are inadequate if things go wrong on a build. Often things can be fixed and life returns to normal. After about 5 years the mind has this built in defensive mechanism where you start to forget the worst times.. after 10 years you remember the good times and what you achieved. The mind heals it's self in many cases. My stuff as an SE: I have a great job, it's very creative at times. Probably the best thing is when you have to design from first principles and marry that up with something that is archtecturally pleasing, can be built and within the budget. But the SE side comes with a lot of responsibility. If the architectural details leak water, or you go over budget then it's not a good look..bad for business, but if something falls down then this is a serious matter. There are two common ways buildings fall down.. a slow collapse and a sudden collapse. The latter is where you are most likely to kill folk as it happens without warning. During the build if temporary works collapse then you can kill the folk working on site. If something like this happens then it will be on your conscience for the rest of your life. I don't know what I would do if I was responsible for a death or many. Best thing to do is to make sure it does not happen! Now every so often I'll design something, do the drawings and calculations. I tend to sit on them for a bit.. sleep on it and let my mind work away in the background. Sometimes I wake up with a busy brain in the middle of the night.. with a bad feeling. I just get up and go and check, there is no way I'm getting back to sleep. The next night I sleep better. Some of the time I realise that I've not included enough explanation in my drawings. Ocasionally I identify a mistake. It's ok.. this is part of the checking process. Sometimes I act as a checking engineer.. I check submissions from large contractors who put pressure on you. I can manage this but as a self builder / renovator it can be very stressfull, not least due to the "language" diiffculty. In the round it's ok to fell stressed, it's no stigma if you feel depressed or out of your depth at times. A problem shared is a problem halved as they say!

Did you check with your SE? What loads are coming from above? Are you one of these Clients that are stubborn and it's you way or the highway?