ToughButterCup

Or that his friend has done it before, or that an experienced person is giving advice?

Please tell me he's done it before... please!

thats why on survival exercises, I always tried to pair up with a trained butcher. And as for slaughtermen phhhhhhhhhh. Knife skills ?

Excellent idea to foster those skills at home.... You could start by showing her how to darn your socks like you used to in the war. ?

I am optimistic. Words matter. How they are used, when they are used and in which context matter even more. Look across the pond. As I see it a small shift in your position - an explanation to @jack to show how you think he was playing with words would be helpful. It is never pointless to make an effort: I suspect though that you are right - most won't make an effort unless there's a pay off. And since in this case the payoff takes place in someones head - unseen by anyone except the person who makes the effort. But I don't want a society where all anyone does is to compete for the visibility of their own ideas. Look across the pond again. That horror - visible on a daily basis - is where lack of mental effort gets us. I don't want it on this side of the pond.

Time for a bit of lateral thinking?

This thread is repleat with generalisation and logical fallacy. And hints of irritation, point scoring and sometimes offence given or taken. It might be a good idea to try our hands at summarising the arguments put by those arguing the case opposite to the one you favour. Yes, its hard work. But more useful than skim reading a post and reacting to the small bit of it that gives offence when none was intended.

Try getting .......... Rechtsschutzversicherungsgesellschaften .......... on a sign post (Tr. Legal defence insurance companies). Mind you Mr Trump needs one or two of them at the moment doesn't he? Oh, just thought : Rechtsschutzversicherungsgesellschaftsfuehrer - there ya go, beat that.

And that accords with a widely promulgated German view of English attitudes. As ever, they coined a compound noun to encapsulate the idea: Inselmentalitaet (Tr. Island Mentality).

Anyone's expenditure is another's income. Not quite purpose-free, therefore.

Welcome. Eh, you don't scythe grass in fields with your shirt off , muscles rippling, waiting for some pretty maid to walk past casting shy glances at your sweating pecks are ya? No? Shame.

?You could be the founder Russ- BucketShopsRus

I got my nose soundly broken by a a Royal Irish Regiment sergeant for calling him a Paddy. Let my own Regiment down using that epithet. He's a very nice man, very very nice man (still) I'm sure ?

... and thus emplying an ad hominem fallacy on an unsighted subject.

You ask: where? A useful starting point is always to examine the underlying assumptions in any statement. In any discussion, a really excellent way of doing that would be (well, is ) to explain the argument put by the other side - while the proponent of that argument listens, respectfully. If done carefully, and in a suitably safe, supported environment , sometimes such discussion starts a thinking process which - over time - can lead to disciplined, respectful dialogue. One where no matter how poorly the point is made (definist fallacy ) or by whom (ad hominem fallacy) , the point made is treated with respect. Naming people - and so implicitly criticising them - rather ignoring the name and referring to the point they made is a common trap. Sometimes called Playing the Man Not the Ball.

@SteamyTea a Troll? Nahhh. He's the grit in yer oyster. Makes us all think just a little bit more. Very useful.

I am a remainer. I have never or will ever regard leavers as uneducated. But I am shocked at the level of vitriol, and saddened at the very poor quality of thinking behind many of the points made. Logical Fallacies (both formal and informal) are common on both sides of the argument. But one simple fact: that leavers won the election remains and must be respected. Its not to my liking, but that's tough. I used to train people to think logically. It's fantastically rewarding watching students (of any age) start to analyse text and speech. And slowly realise that respectful skepticism is a pre-requisite for analysing complex issues. The Brexit issue surely deserves that much respect. More honoured in the breach, it seems.

There's a beautiful little book - been in print since 1954 - that repays re-reading every once in a while. Huff, D. (1954) How to Lie with Satistics , Penguin

Meaningful, accurate data is priceless. As you know. ?

I will. - around lunchtime. I'm using five BlueTooth SensorPush temperature sensors - very easy to use, if a bit expensive. But I now have a data set that I can look at to help us optimise our heating control.

Stand by your beds lads! Wimmin involved. Getting serious now. I want a front row seat.

Maybe, and maybe not. It's the fizz that not understanding something gives me. I hanker after doing a bit of coding, and saving a bit of money as a byproduct. I hope I have this right; even after fitting a diverter, it will still be very interesting to quantify significant sources of demand. Ok, it may not be all that worthwhile financially, but it's the finding out and the journey to getting an answer that's got me hooked.

Ahh, the useful BUT...... Anyway, while I'm waiting for the meter to arrive, and the sparky to turn up, I'm deep into @Bramco's suggestion (Thanks @Bramco). The idea of doing a bit of coding is extremely appealing: should be fun. This diagram stolen fair and square from openenergy.org.uk strikes me as a good first step towards my goal : (identifying what consumes [how electricity] power and when) openenergymonitor even have a discussion board..... addicted to those....

Ordered. Thanks Dave

Thank very much . Get your Vitamin D while you can.