zoothorn

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Its not a Q of asking how he's going to achieve BRegs in the floor Joe: unless I ask if we can go 50mm, he'll just put in default 100mm. He understands my H predicament alot more fully after today's comprehensive goings-over on this issue which he was very accomodating about in fact, didn't once get annoyed with my many Q's & obvious high stress on the subject (in both rooms' H now, now I know final figs of 2.1m lower & 2.2m upper), so is asking our BCO monday. Once I showed him how little we actually have to play with (if all figs correctly done, & gel with actual figs seen once hole knocked thru..) his eyebrows were raising & alot of very careful sums ensued.. then he wasn't laughing no more. I was dead-on with my concerns. we may well have got very cm-lucky, or, the TFrame Co did a superb job of calculating.. but more likely somewhat of a fluke has happened with the 3cm to spare sweat-on figure. Thanks. Top room walls all up, tops braced for wind over wknd. amazing how fast.

@andyscotland ok good advice. I don't need to worry about 'might be allowed' other than asking at the mo, as my builder is bang on board re. actually building anything to BRegs/ he's having a word monday to our BCO for me.. just thought Id ask the Q in meantime. I think I did ask the BCO this very Q, ages ago, & as long as there's wall & ceiling insulation I -think- he said 50mm fine in floor. Wait & see. Its just the H I'm struggling with, 2" if saved is huge.

Understood.. we're thinking as a workshop 50mm might be BR allowed tho, or, even none at all perhaps/ as is.. which would help H but be damn cold as clay below.

Well appreciate that post BigJ. all as you say.. but for one final fly in the fkn ointment. I measured the wrong orientation of the top floor walls. Not 2.4m.. but 2.1m (silver stud lines across not up). Goddamit. So we had the good idea of going into top room & measuring every hyper-critical cm regarding the knock-thru door/ frame/ &.. the crux.. the new ceiling H next door. With a 1.85m frame (low 1.8m door).. we calculated a clearance to the ceiling @ 1.9m (measured from existing bedroom floor up).. of 3cm!!! so that's 1.9m + the drop-in of 45cm = 2.35m which I absolutely demanded MUST be the absolute min the new ceiling is up from new floor. This is taking into account pushing the whole shebang 150mm -the min allowed for B.Regs- shy of existing eaves. 3cm clearance!! you see why I have been so stressed??!! So my concerns were bang on the money.. my dims spot on, & he was surprised & as alarmed as me once all this worked out. For chrissakes 3cm!! all due to the collared ceiling frame cross truss beam being made approx 250mm lower than I ever anticipated. I was told this would be higher, but that out the window. He had no idea at all we'd be this close until I went thru it all with a toothpick-fussy. 3cm is WAY to tight for any tolerance. So stress remains until knock-thru & full picture/ relative ceiling H's are measured is fully revealed. Lord alive I can't deal with it. Again.

I've got one better in fact- physical sections in front of me I am 100% reassured of (& as the vertical outer silver membrane 'stud' lines confirm, he showed me, so no way can be otherway) are 2.4m/ measured. Plus he said one or two 'packing' shim 8x2's flat too.. if he can.. to get right up to tippy top max eaves H. Phew. Seriously this was the reassurance I needed. I am pretty laid back (normally) so I think he just went his own way fully confident. Me, the flip-side stress/ not to his knowledge until today I think. Screed & FFL.. we agreed 50mm insulation plus 12mm of Onoff's screed (terrific thank you- your best link yet!) which he's fine about. So 2.1m room H.. ok not the 2.35m he promised (.. I just forget it now) but 10cm gained from my orig plan. But, we're still on a knife-edge regarding the existing ceiling H (bedroom) & new top room ceiling H, & the worry remains as to the door frame(s) joining: laughs & smiles tho. All amusement to him. Lord alive coffee painkillers, & pacing like a cougar so I am. They're putting top room walls in within a few hrs too.. I can hardly dare look. cheers Declan.

Thanks for that Christine, more gentle advice like this is easier to take on board. The only confrontation here, is some nasty posts tbh. I have not been confrontational to deserve such replies. I am just under alot of stress, that's all (on my own/ no family to help too old, nor anyone in country I know I could ask advice or offload any of my genuine concerns to, as you(s) undoubtadly would have had) & I'm after clarity. I have had my chat with builder, just now over 2 hours of it off & on. It was remarkable for the difference in my stress.. vs his good nature, smiles, laughing at me (in the best way), all --as before tho-- reassuring me not to worry etc! It seems a total 'need to know basis' has been the case ramped to max.. resulting in my innevitable confusion, non-clarity, & some things just altered without my knowledge. He's talked me thru it as he should have done from the off. Apparantly he had to go down the 350mm extra, in order to accomodate a lower upper ceiling level than my plan (due to truss rigidity). It still doesn't add up fully, but I cannot discern what.. & as he said its all done now. I stuck to my guns & said firmly why I was confused, stressed & not too happy.. & he laughed at me, seemingly totally in control (definitely/ without question) which I must have made a mistake in thinking he was covering up for no2 digger mistake. I even said this > amusement "no,no". Why on earth he couldn't have explained I said.. just more amusement. Oddly we're getting on absolutely fine. I've never been so confused. So like before, the reassurances.. but whether that'll mean actual physical concurrance, is still 50/50 (I said all this, straight up.. amusement & proper explanation at last which -was- definitely reassurance). So his plan is -& he should have told me- for the knock-thru (always gonna be a step down into.. but not 3 steps as will have to happen now) is to add one of these steps of three within the stone 2ft wall IE 1ft.. step down.. 2nd foot.. step into room.. 3rd step.. in. All pre-thought out he said. The ceiling we agreed would be tight (my biggest concern, & remains so) as would the door in.. but he just reassures me they'll even be a bit of ceiling H to spare. I guess we'll see. What else can I do but wait. Thanks for all the help- really appreciated, even if angry at me.

I agree with your point that shimming it up does not equate to lifting whole thing up 350mm. But that's all I agree with. I will not post photos as it might be an easy way to be seen by any of the 5 guys on site. At the moment its a box, set down into a trench. The trench I didn't want/ ask/ or put on the plan for. The ceiling/ floor height is 350mm off what it should be on the plan, as is the floor 2000mm below it. That's just fact, that's not to be 'interpreted' whatsoever, absolutely not. Unless its agreed that the fact its 350mm is due solely to a mistake, not by me, but so evidently & clearly by my builder's no2.. then I can't accept the advise. Ive given clear proof of this fact. Haste. Nothing but this as cause. If you're too hasty, you might interpret my extremely clear 350mm figure which -is- included in the 2000mm room height. Its so clear that only haste could be reason as to interpreting this abundantly clear figure IS included, and NOT excluded from the 2000mm figure. Anyone can see this. If you cannot agree this is a builder's mistake, I can only think that just the fact that I do not have the experience you do, is cause for you to side with these builders and against me.

PeterW- the ceiling too low is the least of my problems. If the ceiling's too low, the floor 200mm above's too low. If this is too low the ceiling above it is (very very likely also) too low. If this ceiling is too low relative to the adjacent master bedroom's ceiling the knock-thru door cannot be high enough to pass BRegs, be useable bar a child's height, plus it'll all have a huge 450mm/ 3 steps drop into the new room. Plus the balcony will be too low outside too. Everything's H rests upon the depth of the lower floor: if this is way out, everythung else follows plus some.

Appreciate the advice.. but how could it be so simple, with all the TF sections cut & just a few shims to help? its a huge job to take off fllor truss things/ add the 300mm risers here, then remake all the top floor walls. Half a day? morelike half a month, seriously 2 weeks minimum just to get the new sections remade.. besides he'd never ever agree. Never. He'll say its as per the plan. Its is, but for the +350mm c*ck up sodding everything up. I just don't understand how a builder can do such a mistake knowing full well how devastating it would be for the build, & just walk away.

How do i stop the job with a load of TF softwood just erected getting soaked for weeks??

So put the pair of 8x2 on, lying flat? that's +100mm. Put on their sides? I can't see how they'd fix but if so, that's 200mm. I cannot establish what you see is the idea, the 'plan' with regard to the top room H. So I don't know if at the mo my roof is 350mm short of where the plan states (this is the most logical conclusion- & tallies with the plan I saw today, basically my plan done electronically.. not taking into account the +350mm of course). If I ask what top room H.. I likely get a lie to hoodwink me by as much as 350mm like the lower room. So I have to try & work out by myself, from the pieces in front of me. This is very tricky with rectangles (I don't know which way meant to be orientated). Ive been trying for ages tonight but I cannot do it. If I do get the height of one main wall section, I then have a collared ceiling so no idea how much extra H this gives me (Ive tried but I don't know how these A frames attatch). I don't think very much at all tbh, maybe 150mm: I tried to get him to push the A croos bar as high as possible "yes will do".. then "yes we got them nice n high".. but this is another lie, they're not high at all just industry std/ I bet he didnt even speak to the TFCo on pushing them up one iota/ no intention, just spiel when I ask.

Ok that gives me some cause for hope. But then you see if this done, both the lower sections & the upper sections would all need to be remade/ rejigged at the factory, & the plan shows only what he's made (why he's done it I believe- plan gives him a get-out clause even if he promised he'dadd the 350mm onto my lower room).. but of course it doesn't take into account the +350mm groundwork mistake c*cking up every damn flaming H dimension following on. It seems like I'm stuffed whichever way I turn.

One other thing I need to explore, one small thing in my favour possibly.. is IF he were to build it so the knock-thru door is indeed too low to use properly & therefore does not comply with BRegs (even skimming the ceiling/ set as far twds new ceiling as possible) & its all agreed that we build it via a Build Notice on the assumption he knows the relevant BReg rules, builds it to such BR rules, & competantly etc (as is the case) & the BCO agrees its not possible to make a knock-thru door because the because the new ceiling H is too low.. & cannot sign it off as a result, is he liable to address/ recify this? if so it certainly won't be as the plan (bc the whole thing would be 350mm lower including top room, roof, ceiling et al) whether or not its lines have been drawn electronically. I have only asked him to make the knock-thru tho.. not the door that would follow. Id find it hard to think the BCO would let a builder make a ceiling, then a hole adjacent to it that could not accomodate a door of building regs min requirements.

Can anyone tell me how physically feasable it is to take off nail-gunned-on Timber Frame ceiling truss beam things? they have alu brackets all along in ~~~ shape, softwood.

It is part of the plan. I have 2 other overhead views, of course (or he wouldn't know the position where I wanted the window/ width, the door below, the width of the french doors etc etc). What you seem to be doing, is trying to prove how inept I am, & how he's done what's asked when in fact the very converse is true: he was inept (in this case/ this mistake/ he's responsible for) & I did what I was asked to do. It was agreed perfectly agreeably, without neccessarily the need for electronically made plans (on site plans are them in physical form anyway).. even on this forum it was said perfectly feasable to hand draw, even books I read as to this fact too.. so I have done nothing wrong here either. You seem to want to blame anyone but the builder, just because its a hand drawn plan. Its the simplest of builds, just one idiot looks at this ^ plan too quickly on wednesday pm in his van, sees +350mm & not my clear room H mark which includes this figure, jumps out his van/ onto digger very fast & thinks +350mm.. not simply that 350mm is included. Too fast, simple as that. He had no plan in his hand, all "I know fkn best" attitude, didn't look when I put the interior FL ground mark on, & ignored me when I stated its importance "just leave me to it". I quizzed both on this too low & I could tell they knew it was incorrect, but put the schoolboy hat on & tried to cover it up. Please don't go on about me being to blame- please.

RedOct.. its the continuation on I had dreaded, but promised would not happen. Its all very well saying 'the plan shows 2m.. you've got 2m.. so what's the fuss?' but as you know, there has been a massive error by the builders on the groundwork being made 350mm extra depth. RO- I wouldn't possibly know how to 'get rid of him/ pay up, get s'one else in'.. I would need personal help/ speaking to someone & extreme care to take this course. Its almost n/a to be honest. Its a Q of working with him only. And yes now I have to step up.. tomorrow I have to. Before, when I Q'd this mistake I was promised the extra would be added to the lower room H. I now know this was likely a ruse, that he knew the mistake but had no intention of rectifying it at all. The only thing in my favour here, is if the roof is indeed made 350mm lower.. then I have plans to show 'not as/ wrong'.. but his bet is that once the tiles on, Id not dare to speak up. Why get stressed? are you kidding?

1) It is on my plan. This is the only plan that has been agreed on. The one I saw today (the TF Co one evidently they're using to know which section joins to which etc) I only saw briefly, but looked as per mine. This of course completely ignores this wretched +350mm D mistake causing all the problems.. in which case, if I assume this plan same as mine (as why would it take into account an ammendment by way of an additional 350mm D that's not on the orig plans?).. then regardless of the drawings.. the new roof will innevitably be 350mm short of the plan. I suppose once we're at this point, up there he thought, I'll just fein oddness & 'oh I think we're a bit short' etc or more likely just say 'that's fine/ all normal': & if needed, use my plan with only what he told me to put on it, by way of his escape-excuse. 2) I have no idea, I asked this very Q a few posts before.. but if its a Q to my builder assuming there might be room to manoevre with him on it, then a big NO.. why.. because it scuppers his dead-set plan (to cover his no2's mistake, & the extra cost of it he incurs). And NO because it costs him extra if he were to agree to do it... tho it seems I have no choice but fight to the hilt on this very crux point unless I want a disaster extention. 3) no, the upstairs are odd one side to the other.

I saw them today. They do not show the additional 350mm he promised me. It shows my original plan room H's. 2m and 2.3m with 200mm floor between. Fine & dandy if the damn groundwork wasn't dug +350mm deep. I quizzed him on this, I said I just saw the plan.. "oh no he said, it'll be 2.2m we have shims we've been given so we can alter to suit" (8x2's on side). 4x shims are indeed in.. but added to the wall sections I measured & told myself "pls pls no" the other night stacked in a pile, @ 1.88m .. it all equals 2m once insulation + final layer. At best. Possibly 1.95m or 1.90m. Another convenient red-herring he threw me & I snapped up, was "oh best to have a window in there it'll be quite a dungeon as it is, we can put that in no problem just ask".. IE making me consider this to appease the fact the room's only 2m H not 2.35m H he never intended, but lied to me it would be. Clever I think now, total builder expertise vs a nice guy on his own who'se easy money. A mistake? opps.. but hey hang on, its only this guy, I think we'll just plough on & spin yarns to keep him at bay until its too late to turn back. Ie, right this very now/ this evening.

Not paid up front, thank god bitpipe. My drawings say 2m room H. But the groundwork was set +350mm down (a mistake, by them). I was then told "all fine, it'll be added to the lower room H.. so 2.35m I asked?.. yes.. you promise me? yes don't worry". Ok I said, tho confused & knowing I'm agreeing to a compromise: it would've been ok as Id be gaining 0.35m room H I thought.. but it was a lie to let them carry on, probably because either *he'd had the room's TF sections ordered at this point, or, he had no inclination to change from my orig plan by spending the extra he should have on the additional 0.35m adding to the walls' sections to rectify the mistake, & thought I'd fall for abc minor excuses, fibs, lying me down from 2.35m to 2.2m today.. to 2m I measure this evening after they'd gone. I'm convinced this* is the case.. in which case the whole thing WILL be 350mm short & a major situation occurs as I can't get a door in. I cannot undertsand it. I cannot understand how he expects me to pay if this is the outcome.. apart from.. cornering me on the fact my plan "didn't show adequate clarity" etc etc bllx.. tho it seemed some on here agreed precisley with this/ these cowboys, that that is the very reason for the damn mistake, me not them. This adds insult to injury I can tell you. I cannot understand how we can be on such good terms, even sitting in church together, get on very well.. & with a vg reputation in general, & good work done here before, for him to hoodwink me like this.. if I am being hoodwinked.

No, I've got 2.06m room height then.. in this best case situation. I do not want a chipboard floor, or any wood floor, in a workshop with routers & saws etc anyway. It was always to be scree. At the moment I measure 2.2m. This is -not- taking into account the additional minimum of insulation, scree, or pB on the ceiling truss things underside yet. I;m definitely gonna have to ask for 50mm PIR which I'm very angry about after being promised xyz. 2.35m I was promised, from FFL to underside of ceiling truss things. I'm so angry & dissapointed.

Can these timber frame ceiling truss/ beam things be removed? They were nail-gun attatched. Probably 5 of them done, not full 8. Its the only thing I can think of.. but I have one huge fight, weeks of this lot left in rain to deter me, possibly them walking off job & sueing me/ threats etc.

They do, if the WHOLE thing top to btm is indeed 350mm short. But I saw them build this in such speed today I honestly believe, with the fibs I'm told to keep me at bay when I appear & ask, they're just going ahead with the innitial room Heights.. with clear knowledge the +350mm extra D mistake made.. but completely unwilling to even consider adding this 350mm. So yes the WHOLE thing will be 350mm short. Now if this is true -& I'm growing to believe its exactly so- I definitely WILL have a too-low knock-thru door which will not only not pass building regs, but need a massive £15k redo to rectify it, lawyers & untold stress. The only ray of hope, & thin, is when I asked (yet again) about the overall H & where the roof will sit relative to the original roof, IE tuck right up max it can, he said "yes.. we can even try get it 150mm from it/ the max B.Regs allows". Now why he would say such a huge lie, if it is another lie, I just cannot believe.

The top room sections cannot be minimised/ cut. This would need to be done, in theory, then room 1 ceiling truss/ beam things removed, then 350mm added onto the walls here, then the truss/ beams put back (where I was promised they would be only 2 days ago). This theoretical fix would solve 2 problems: the cramped lower room H. And the huge 450mm step into the top room from the knock-thru door to what it should be (& what's on the goddam plan). But it wouldn't mean my top room walls aren't too low/ so my final upper ceiling & roof too low > so my knock-thru door is impossible.. as seems to be the case afaict at the moment. I just don't know. I briefly saw a plan today, from which they were working: 2m lower room, 200mm dividing floor, 2.3m top room. This is what I stipulated on my plan. BUT it hasn't taken into accounthe the huge +350mm extra that's been dug down! I was lied to when I asked my builder "I just saw the plans there, & it says 2m lower room.. that's not what's happening is it?" .. "Oh no, it'll be 2.2m.. we have shim beams [8x2 cannadians on their side] which we've been given to make up the H" he said. I saw 2x put in below the ceiling truss/ beam things.. but even with these.. I'm at 2.2m WITHOUT my insulation & final floor layer. Total lies.

Because the lower room is built with the ceiling fixed on, & all the top room sections are sitting in a pile (all made) ready in the rain.. ready to be put together. I can't elongate them overnight.