zoothorn

Ok I have a number of things to tie up before the wretched builder is gone (let alone what's on the final bill, 1/3rd overall cost). 1) the galvanised lintels (3 of) I mentioned to him I was unhappy about seeing one bowing when built (not supported in middle/ alot of block weight above one in particular bowing the most), have been left as is after rendering around. They're lintels visible/ not covered over by render. It was mentioned on here not to worry as will be rendered over anyway, so reassured by this I didn't press builder harder.. & waited. When I quizzed builder as they were made & noticeably bowing he said "oh fine" (walking off in a huff), & later "will be covered/ rendered over anyway so don't see it" when I asked again about them being seen (hoodwinking me, yet again). When renderer said "all done" & I quizzed lintels, he said "was not aked to do".. & off he went. He also said "its not that they can't be done, just I was not asked to do" (implying its bit of a tricky job). So its not a Q of getting builder to come back & finish off (which he won't, refusing it was ever mentioned they'd be covered/ lying).. its a Q of what should I expect, as a client (not having the finer details of a "render job" broken down into specific minutiae, doors, windows, reveals, the constitution of the mix, the depth of finish.. because I'm a client & as such I expect certain things like roof batons, nails fixing my tiles down to them for eg without it being specifically written down they are to be included).

Thing is these are not north facing. Opposite: the corner of the two sides (I have these new windows/ doors on only 2 sides of the extensions' three sides).. is south facing, & at this time of year have sun all PM on the doors & sun sets fully on them: but still obscured by condensation. If they were north facing.. Id jump on this as cause.

Hi Roundtuit- just alot on outside (if between then I'd know defective).

Ok Peter- understand that yes good point. Ok I'll assume ok & whatever I'd have put in there the same would happen.. damned annoying though it totally ruins/ obscures my fab views through my new french doors, the primary reason for the upper room. I get final bill this afternoon.. so alot of stress waiting on this/ not a wink of sleep last night as I'm worried he'll u-turn on his word & charge me the £400/ £435 on the two 'tidy up jobs' I stipulated I wanted & he agreed to do in response to/ after I showed my clear dissatisafaction re. the build's big 'dip' issue c*cking up so much.

Yes.. I could have trawled for hours without knowing exactly what I'm asking. So why ask anything on a build forum if you can spend all day trawling google?? because its a more succinct/ streamlined/ therefore sensible vehicle to use, especially if unclear about the Q to ask. So why are all my other windows not showing the same then?? If its to do with atmospherics & they're the same identical upvc type, only yards away on same side of house.. they all should show the same symptoms- shouldn't they?

But does this suggest doing the inside stuff will make a difference? (or does whatever is between argon/ rayon/ whatever it is act as a conduit to heat to transmit to the outside pane.. unlike a vacuum). I'm not sure what thus sentence is saying. I'm not suggesting my builder do anything now I've established (I think from the replies) that my builder has -not- installed dud windows: my 1st concern. I was only ever asking if something can be done inside to affect it, or if it will clear once xyz done (my builder says "yes, exactly that" so is this yet another lie I wonder?). Why these 3 windows are the only ones I see around here that are like this (they're all better quality windows than mine, & not new) is reasonable to ask surely?

As I said I didn't know what to google "condensdation on outside pane before doing inside xyz stuff".. or "condensation on outside pane". I still don't know what I'm asking: is the inside stuff not yet done.. going to rectify this situation.. or not? there are conflicting posts suggesting yes, then no. So I go from thinking ok fine I have the answer & it'll go once I do inside xyz stuff, to then another post suggests 'it just happens'. The sun was full on all of them all yesterday but they stayed totally full of condensation.. & there was some heat. And my existing windows only yards away are clear. So this is confusing.

Onoff if I'm to be landed a bill of £1800 tomorrow being forced to pay within 2 weeks or the threat of a 10% surcharge added, for 2 windows & a pair of double doors covered in so much condensation they're almost fully obscured (& I cannot establish if they're meant to be like this, or not, & I see no-one else's windows & doors like this/ or have ever known any like this- certainly not new).. & I have a competant but also incredibly untrustworthy builder telling lies after lies to my face & starting to pressurise me on payment (after having made an awful mistake the consequenses of which I just have to live with apparantly &/ or all my fault according to quite a few on here, incredulously).. then its absolutely perfectly justifiable that I should be worried. Surely you could offer some help instead-?

sorry I don't understand, still. By saying google it what do i google? "windows condensation on outside after timer frame & block cladding complete but before inside xyz work"? or just google "condensation on outside windows panes?" Here (^) are you suggesting by saying "nothing to worry about/ park it" that the condensation will A) always be like this/ its nothing to worry about (in your opinion) so get used to it (in which case it is most certainly something to worry about if I can't see out the windows).. or B) that the condensation will be rectified --after-- I do xyz inside stuff (& so nothing to worry about now)..? "Would you rather it was on the inside or outside???" suggests I have to put up with it.. but the Q is will it be rectified by doing the xyz inside stuff, or no, it will remain as it is? FWIW my builder came round today (more lies to my face, sigh, this time about a door detail Im not happy about FFS) & I asked him if the condensation would be rectified by the xyz inside work & his answer was of course "yes". But he's a lying sod i don't trust a single word he says, hence i'm trying to get the answer on here.

ok understand that- which implies its not a vacuum as I thought then-? again when you say warmth from inside.. do you mean insulation (which is not introducing any heat), or.. introducing some heat via a rad or something?

sorry dpmiller- I just don't understand what you mean by 'unit' here (or the implications of zero heat loss across any part of a window).

you mean once the room is insulated, or a heater put on? how will this make any difference to the difference in temp between the inside vacuum & outside cold pane tho (which is the only thing that can possibly determine why condensation forms on the ouitside pane)? I just don't understand.

hang on .. you mean this is the way they'll always be-? IE after I do xyz inside stuff, they will remain as they are? At the moment they have condensation across the whole 4x panes all day long, so much so I cannot see out of them. This is not conceivably acceptable for any new window/ or any window at all: my existing 20 yr old windows aren't covered in condensation, they're normal/ I can see out of them.

Ok good- reassuring that (you can see how my confidence in him is shot tho, whatever he does especially says).. tho I dont understand it, if the outside pane remains the same temp regardless of what temp the inside pane is, due to the buffer layer between. The only thing different in this case is bc its not inside-fittd yet, the inside panes are a bit colder to my adjacent master bedroom (but not much- this room's freezing cold/ almost equal temp Id say) which both windows are clear.

I was told screws in frames > timber, plus foam. I can see the foam, but it could well be another lie if any screws were used at all.

I can't possibly have any way of knowing Declan. I just don't trust him enough: if I ask it'll just be hoodwink (or truth) "oh no custom made".. 50/50. One thing I do know, on a different point, is very bad condensation on the outside panes of double-door-french doors, & both windows. Considering I'm about to be landed with bill for final 1/3rd cost of overall build, I need to establish if these windows are duds or ok (& condensation will go once I do xyz inside stuff). If I ask him.. again I can't trust his answer (which will either be "oh no, fine/ normal".. &/ or.. "will clear once you do yyz inside stuff" by which time I'd have been forced to pay bill). Went to look at lovely sunset across view opposite fr. doors.. & couldn't see a thing thru both whole panes covered in moisture.

I just don't have the experience to answer: I was sort of asking this Q myself on here. When the lower window width was narrowed to 920mm from 1150mm, the opening was measured precisely as you'd expect.. more than that from a client pov I have reason to make the assumption the window would fit without a ton shaved off each side (b b but you can never assume/ did you agree a window size tho? No?? well its all your fault then.. is what I almost expect as reply now). I mean there -are- certain assumptions made from a client. Eg I get a quote for a 'roof'. I have no prior knowledge nor does Mrs. miggins at no73 of its materials. I ask about slates which she maybe wouldn't. Quote good > its built. But did we agree roof batons? no. But there they are. Did we agree ridge tiles? gutters? soffits? A membrane under the tiles? no discussion but all there.. IE you'd just naturally assume the roof would be built including various sections that make up a roof, without needing to ask, or knowing their constituant names. At the moment I'm trying to tie up last bits: I got a quote for a "Knock- through from existing bedroom" & now its made I don't know if its been finished, or left for me to finish, or what. If I ask builder its "oh you can do that, its easy" (meaning its simple enough with the skills he knows I have -limited- to leave it to me to finish off.. which I could but shouldn't I if I'm paying him.. and is it "finished" at all from his pov?) so there's no point asking him.

Understand this dpm.. but its just clear a heck of alot of plastic shaved off each side to fit them. A ton of white chip shavings evidence all over the place (awful for this lovely environment here). Windows meant to continue on from existing ones, same style etc: orig have 80mm between reveal & glass. So these @ 50mm not only a pain to sort out inside work, but look wider than they should/ the glass area etc. There must be a mfr minimum recommendation of fitting/ max shaving off each side/ or min width of reveal > to glass. There has to be surely.

This is what someone else said. The clever thing it does minimum, is put pressure on unsuspecting clients.. like me.. to gain a bargaining position: IE if I quibble last things he can snap back 'I don't want you to have to charge you 10% extra', forcing me to drop any concerns. You see I've one last BIG hurdle: what's added to the bill to come (~1/3rd of total): specifically the 'tidy-up-jobs' I was confident he'd do inc/ foc. You see after making my FIRM upset known re. the overall depth issue (awful) he relented asking what I wanted then? I said the drain around, & skim off drive jobs pls. He agreed in a huff, & scribbled out the £435 / £400 figs for the jobs off a copy of my quote while we negotiated. I was alarmed you see he added these two figs to a new quote after continual "don't worry.. we'll put a drain in for you" assurances each time I mentioned the build depth issue. Or, other palm-off assurances after quizzing the depth issue, which turned out to be outright lies: "the added 1 ft will be added to lower room, yes I promise" which never happened (if this was indeed so/ true: the dividing floor, ceiling above, crucial knock-thru height, french door & window positions would all be unnafected by groundwork this wretched 14" too low). Now you see its dawning on me maybe he plans another U-turn on these two tidy-up-job promises, & the £435/ 400 will appear on the final bill.. then "14 days to pay or 10%" pressuring me to pay these extras he promised me, without kicking up another fuss. A total nightmare from 20mins into job on day1, at 3.20pm, when I see his no2 measuring down from the wrong point up near gutters (I even told him! he ignored me, intimidated & telling me he knew best & am I the fkn builder!?). So my concern & stress constant from the 1st hr all through build to now job done. No fancy plan would've stopped this bull-in-china-shop builder in his huge rush simply measuring from a wrong point, that's the only certainty I have.

As I'm into final small jobs from builder (soon to be rid of please.. just go!) I've got a few tricky loose ends to tie up, one is the reveal problem. Another I noticed on the (very very small) smallprint on the bottom of the invoice (for roof, TF, groundwork/ the lions share of costs).. "to be paid in 14 days or 10% charged will be added". As I had some extremely tricky things to consider & wrangle with him about (due to this wretched overall +14"H mistake that's caused so many repercussions) I only noticed this wording on 16th day sunday. I paid next day in a blind panic, having been forced to I thought before the BCO checked the 3 major things on the invoice. Extremely stressful this & another whole night without sleep worrying- tbh I'm angry about this this insult to injury after all the list of +14" H countless repercussions, & outright lies I've had to put up with. I've not even brought the subject up.. so I assume will not be surcharged another £1.8k for being 3 days late. Anyone thoughts on this 10% fright I had/ have?

So is it normal I have only 50m to glass? or should a builder be making it say min 80mm or whatever? surely there HAS to be a minimum figure here or he'd not be able to put insulation > he'd be in same boat as me if he were to be doing inside work.

[Sorry I only just seen the replies 4/12 onwards.. no notifications (this is a constant issue, & leads to complications if X replies/ I do not see/ & quick assumptions made that I just ignore advice given). Mods: is there a solution to this? I do get notifications, but only I'd say 50%. I have the 'notify' box correctly checked.] Hi PeterW- first you sday I need to put insulation, then you say just attatch pB to the timber frame. So I'm left just as confused as to what -I have to do- from a B.regs point of view (my BCO is ill or I'd call). I have to do my stuff to B. Regs, presumably, unless you are suggesting I do s'thing that is not/ & not seen/ BCO don't need to know basis-? If I have to put insulation, I can't, so I have to tell builder to take out all windows.. this I cannot do without massive repercussions (probably £1k to 2k's worth of retalliation against me/ to balance cost of him doing it). If I don't have to: great (but won't it be cold tho)?

Sorry no- my cam is not working when i need it to. I have 5cm to the glass from timber reveal side. So 37mm (going 25mm + 12mm pB) which is on the join of the glass inner section (remove area).. so too far. Surely any builder should give enough room here so there's no constrain when it comes to the interior stuff around it?

Hi Peter- but when you say 'not needed.. just wants closing off with some insulation' I'm a bit confused as this is what my Q is about (IE I find I don't have room to add any, with the 12mm pB thickness too). Taper-edges board & taped. No funds left to plaster. Condensation is a huge problem on kitchen windows.. but I don't blame anything I did or didn't do re. the reveals.. because like the general house cold battle my heaters cannot possibly win (eg I often see my breath with -2- electric htrs on in a room!!) the condensation is so huge I nevered expect lining my kitchen would make any inroads (pools of water on sill each morning at the mo: the norm now = worse than before dare I say it).

Can anyone lend me a hand- I don't have enough window frame inside the room, to do as I did in kitchen: line the reveal sides with insulation + plasterboard ontop. If I do I'm 1cm away from the glass/ too close & looks wrong. Why windows fitted like this I don't know: if as meant to be, or too much whittled off sides to fit the opening (I suspect as much but if I ask my builder why I just get a lie/ no point asking). If I call the BCO & ask 'if needed?' & he says YES then I'm forced to = awful window reveals.. so I'm inclined to just do whatever I can before checked over by him.. but the question is will it be a cold ingress area? will it negate the wall insulation? is it a total no-no to just pB onto the timbers? thanks zoot.