Teddysheart Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Hi all, first post, We own a house which has features that are listed on the outside. It's grade 2. I have a question about this attic area before I consult the council planners and a listed surveyor. I want to know what my chances are for a proposal. I know my question may be moot if they do not agree to the proposed change but I would like to know if the argument against it would be structural or purely a listing issue. https://ibb.co/kqP7Ch3 https://ibb.co/L0MH2rd Can the lathed ceiling pictured (which is too low to stand up in for anyone around 5ft 8) be taken down without affecting the structural integrity of the roof? I'm happy to provide more pictures if needed of specific things. Ideally I would like to take out the ceiling and what appear to be purlin (2x2.5 inch) above it to open up the space. I am not asking from the point of view of a listed surveyor, I know that's a separate issue, but from the pov of the basic structure if you have experience with working on these types of roofs. Many thanks for any replies, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 That looks like an A frame roof. Those cross member ceiling beams are probably what stops the roof spreading. I don't see a ridge beam. You would need a design by a structural engineer to alter the roof possibly by inserting a ridge beam or purlins to support the roof. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddysheart Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 Thanks for the speedy reply. My next job is to get a quote in then ? There is already a dormer window so it wouldn't be a fully fledged conversion. Is this a complicated job (what you're describing) assuming it doesn't involve accessing/changing the roof from the outside? Many thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Is that a purlin on the left side resting on the brickwork ..?? Got a better image of the left (and right) just above the ceiling level..? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddysheart Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 https://ibb.co/QmbZwbw https://ibb.co/dpnBVQR https://ibb.co/4KMpLNb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddysheart Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) I think that is just a random piece of timber! I am surprised the ones going crossways are doing much because as I say, they are quite small, 2x2.5 inch. Edited June 3, 2019 by Teddysheart Added information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddysheart Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 Not sure if this adds anything... https://ibb.co/jggzc4d https://ibb.co/VLx285D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 29 minutes ago, Teddysheart said: I think that is just a random piece of timber! The one with the red arrow ..?? Looks like a purlin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 17 minutes ago, Teddysheart said: Not sure if this adds anything... https://ibb.co/jggzc4d https://ibb.co/VLx285D Only that it confirms there is no ridge beam. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Not an expert but would it be acceptable for you to just raise the ceiling, so the new ceiling joists could still tie the rafters together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddysheart Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 I'm not sure I have anything to add here except to say I wouldn't need to move that purlin with the red arrow and that I doubt the 2x2.5 inch batons would hold hold a medium sized dog so not sure how much they can be doing! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, Teddysheart said: I'm not sure I have anything to add here except to say I wouldn't need to move that purlin with the red arrow and that I doubt the 2x2.5 inch batons would hold hold a medium sized dog so not sure how much they can be doing! ? If they are stopping the roof from spreading, they would be in tension, so could be doing quite a lot. How much are you hoping to raise the ceiling, or do you not want a ceiling just open right to the ridge? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddysheart Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 I'd be happy just to raise the ceiling 6 inches tbh. Especially if it means less faffing and expense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 6 minutes ago, Teddysheart said: I'm not sure I have anything to add here except to say I wouldn't need to move that purlin with the red arrow and that I doubt the 2x2.5 inch batons would hold hold a medium sized dog so not sure how much they can be doing! ? The ceiling joists only need to be small, as most of the load in them will be tensile, holding the rafters together to prevent spreading, I think, as @ProDave has said above . It looks like there are purlins in place, one being the one that @PeterW has marked with a red arrow, and they will be helping to tie things together too. As for possibilities for raising the ceiling, based on the info in those photos I'd say that it may well be reasonably easy to do, but that I would guess that the new ceiling joists would need to be fitted before the old ones were removed, and an SE would need to advise as to what's needed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) There should be a purlin both sides. That takes the roof weight so nothing else needed (no ridge beam @ProDave) Those others are ceiling joists and I’d be inclined before you remove the old ones to use that as a platform to install some new ones higher up, then remove the old ceiling. Downside will be the whole lot will need to be brought up to building regs and you’ll possibly have to use PUR as the rafters aren’t that deep Edited June 3, 2019 by PeterW Crossed with @jsharris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddysheart Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 That's great news! Thanks JSHARRIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddysheart Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 Thanks everyone for your replies, I feel confident now I can speak to a structural engineer about the best option for us. Many many thanks ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Teddysheart said: [...] I would like to know if the argument against it would be structural or purely a listing issue. [...] Treat it as both. The issue is in any case structural. As such, why bother to ask an SE (Structural Engineer) to become involved before you have double checked the listing issue with the relevant authorities? You might need to phrase your enquiry very carefully indeed, I suspect. For example, you could enquire about repairing the ceiling and listen between the lines ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddysheart Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 Fair points, thanks anonymousbosch. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 (edited) My parents did some of this. Often it will look more attractive if you just leave most of the beams there. One warning - COs have very long memories and very deep filing cabinets. When we lived as a family in a listed Hall for nearly 4 decades, it was in a copse and dad did various useful things that would cause a blizzard of paperwork now. We had one CO visit, who was a chap dad had fallen out with a decade previously, and they never returned for 30 years until we were selling. They even had trouble finding us when on the way - and it can be seen from the M1. Ferdinand Edited June 3, 2019 by Ferdinand 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddysheart Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 Thanks Ferdinand. I'll post back as and if things progress ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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