Anyone used online 3D printing services

[Onoff]

@Temp, ever printed in ABS? 

 

My lad tried yesterday afternoon / evening. It's Steadytech ABS PRO which isn't as smelly/ noxious as normal ABS so I'm informed by a regular user. He set up outside on the patio table whilst the day was still hot and printed into the evening. As a nod to keeping everything warm he placed a huge, upturned, clear storage crate over the whole printer. The crate wasn't quite tall enough to touch the table. 

 

After approx 21 layers the whole print slid across the bed where it had become  unadhered. 

 

Also a bit of warping, curvature. 

 

 

I'll ask my regular user contact but I'm reading things like to use hairspray, glue stick, masking tape, ABS slurry on the bed to stop this.

[Temp]

6 hours ago, Onoff said:

After approx 21 layers the whole print slid across the bed where it had become  unadhered. 

 

Also a bit of warping, curvature. 

 

 

Not used it myself but apparently its very susceptible to small temperature variations which distort the print or cause it to come off the bed. Some people say even a slight draught from an air conditioning vent is enough to cause a problem and recommend fully enclosing the whole printer in a box. I've heard mention of an Ikea cabinet or box that people use but haven't investigated.

 

Edit: Forgot to mention there are YouTube video suggesting using acetone and scrap abs to help adhesion to the bed.

 

https://youtu.be/saNoiV-op-0

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by Temp

[PeterW]

What settings is he using for PLA..? I keep getting adhesion issues even with tape 

[Onoff]

11 minutes ago, PeterW said:

What settings is he using for PLA..? I keep getting adhesion issues even with tape 

 

We were just discussing that. We get no adhesion issues at all using PLA. Nothing used either, straight on the glass.

 

- Glass bed here

- Clean bed with IPA is the main thing 

- 50degC bed

- 200degC hot end. We've used Anycubic, Flash Forge and Steadytech PLA.

- 1st layer 150% of normal layer height unless you're already at the max height for the nozzle

- Do 1st layer at 70% speed

-50mm/s is generally the speed printed at here.

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by Onoff

[Onoff]

14 minutes ago, Temp said:

 

 

Not used it myself but apparently its very susceptible to small temperature variations which distort the print or cause it to come off the bed. Some people say even a slight draught from an air conditioning vent is enough to cause a problem and recommend fully enclosing the whole printer in a box. I've heard mention of an Ikea cabinet or box that people use but haven't investigated.

 

Couple of stacking crates. Still a gap where the mains lead comes in. SWMBO won't let us drill holes in the crates! 

 

 

Trying ABS with a raft now. The idea being the raft takes all of the strain.

[Temp]

22 minutes ago, PeterW said:

What settings is he using for PLA..? I keep getting adhesion issues even with tape 

 

There are several different adhesion problems. Is it coming off after several layers have been printed or are you having problems with printing the first layer? 

 

13 minutes ago, Onoff said:

- 1st layer 150% of normal layer height unless you're already at the max height for the nozzle

 

That would never work for me but perhaps I misunderstand.

 

I use blue 3M painters tape over glass and normally print with 0.3mm layer heights. I start by zeroing the Z axis and levelling the bed so the nozzle height is around 0.15mm above the bed,  but I find that only works for some filaments (Filamentum for example). Some cheaper filaments I have to go down to 0.1mm or even 0.05mm or the first layer doesn't print well - the main problem is with small shapes such as the outline of holes getting pulled off if the nozzle is too high. If the first layer prints well then I don't usually have any issues with the print coming off later. My default speed is 50mm/s with the first layer printed at 25mm/s (50%).

 

If you get an issue with prints warping and coming off the bed later in the print that can be a cooling issue. Try reducing the fan speed. Some stock fan shrouds only blow air from one side of the nozzle (typically they blow backwards towards the rear of the printer) so if you get problems with the front edge or front corners lifting but not the back edge or corners (or less in the back) that could be a clue its a cooling fan issue. I've had to drop fan speeds as low as 20% before. You can also set it so more layers are printed before the fan turns on. You can also print a fan shroud that blows from all sides.

 

Adding a brim around a print can also help hold it down. This also helps if you have problems with the nozzle not priming correctly. Sometimes adding a brim changes the order in which things are printed on the first layer and that can also help (eg the small outlines get printed later instead of first).  

 

I've heard that wiping the blue tape with IPA improves adhesion but I've not tried that. I've also used hair spray and the Pritt Stick and water method, both work but I find the tape easier although recently have had issue with the tape only lasting a few prints.  

 

 

 

 

[Onoff]

43 minutes ago, Temp said:

 

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

- 1st layer 150% of normal layer height unless you're already at the max height for the nozzle

 

That would never work for me but perhaps I misunderstand.

 

OK. Usually he prints with a 0.2mm layer so first layer is 0.3mm i.e 150%.

 

We have a zeroing button here for each axis. Why do you have to start by zeroing? Out of the box it was crap until the bed was properly level but once done never touched it again. As I say, for PLA never used anything to help adhesion.

 

Just trying to make ABS slurry here. No actual acetone so hoping gun cleaner will suffice!

 

 

Reading that for ABS it's useful to switch the part cooling fan off.

 

 

[Onoff]

What exactly is ABS slurry? Is it ABS fully dissolved in "acetone" or a bitty liquid for "grip"?

 

Not sure if this foam gun cleaner is pure acetone.

 

 

What we've seen on YouTube it looks like milk as in made from white filament.

 

 

 

[Temp]

I think nail polish remover is Acetone but don't let the wife catch you pinching it.

[Onoff]

10 minutes ago, Temp said:

I think nail polish remover is Acetone but don't let the wife catch you pinching it.

 

It apparently has glycerine etc in it that can cause issues. Pure acetone is best. 

[Temp]

4 hours ago, Onoff said:

- 1st layer 150% of normal layer height unless you're already at the max height for the nozzle

 

I'm going to have to do some investigating...

 

Up to now I've kept the First Layer Height setting in the slicer the same as other layers (typically 0.3mm) and adjusted the physical bed-nozzle height to a lower value (0.15mm) to squish the filament onto the bed. That works but you end up with the first layer being thinner.

 

On some web pages they say to REDUCE the First Layer Height setting to improve adhesion.... 

https://3dprinterwiki.info/tips/first-layer-settings/

Quote

A good rule of thumb is for the

first layer height to be 90% lower than the other layers. This will extrude the same amount of plastic into a space 10% lower so the plastic will squish flatter against the bed.
 

But then elsewhere they say to INCREASE the First Layer Height setting to improve adhesion...

https://community.ultimaker.com/topic/27001-nozzle-height-vs-initial-layer-height/

Quote

 

A guy on  YouTube recommended the "Initial Layer Height" be set at 150% of the "Layer Height", but he didn't offer any explanation for that.
 

 

and I've just noticed that if you mouse over the Initial Layer Height setting in Cura it says..

Quote

 

A thicker initial layer makes build plate adhesion easier
 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by Temp

[PeterW]

3 hours ago, Temp said:

Some cheaper filaments I have to go down to 0.1mm or even 0.05mm or the first layer doesn't print well - the main problem is with small shapes such as the outline of holes getting pulled off if the nozzle is too high. If the first layer prints well then I don't usually have any issues with the print coming off later. My default speed is 50mm/s with the first layer printed at 25mm/s (50%).

Right ..!!

 

Dropped the head, used the feeler gauges to get it level, 50% speed on the first layers and it seems to have sorted it ..!

[Onoff]

We levelled the bed using the "levelling sheet" that came with the printer. Can't remember the thickness when I measured it with a Vernier. I'll dig it out. I do remember it was glossy. When we tried to set up for level using a sheet of plain A4 the head dragged the paper.

[Onoff]

My lad thought that printing ABS without any adhesion promoter would work if he enclosed the printer and printed a sacrificial shield encircling the print. Lesson learnt!

 

It moved:

 

 

It warped:

 

 

Despite printing a sacrificial "heat shield" around it:

 

 

This was the first layer, you can see how the "hole" didn't adhere:

 

 

It has potential though, nice tight layers:

 

 

It won't go to waste though. It'll get chopped up to make ABS slurry. Using foam gun cleaner "contains acetone"  and it's taking an age to dissolve the ABS. Just tried Lidl's Baufix thinners, first ingredient acetone and that's dissolving it a treat.

[Temp]

I've just remembered why I haven't tried printing ABS... I printed a lot of parts for my printer from PLA. If I put it in a box and let it get hot the whole thing might melt.

[Onoff]

7 hours ago, Temp said:

I've just remembered why I haven't tried printing ABS... I printed a lot of parts for my printer from PLA. If I put it in a box and let it get hot the whole thing might melt.

 

Yes, a whole new set of rules with ABS. If you want to think about stuff for outside attached to metalwork or inside a car where high Summer temperatures might affect it though its probably the stuff to use. PLA could just go floppy. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Onoff

[Onoff]

We've zero experience printing with ABS here. I've made up two jars of ABS slurry in the absence of pure acetone, with foam gun cleaner and then thinners, both listing acetone as the first ingredient. In both cases I think the results aren't "smooth" enough to coat the bed without the remaining, undissolved ABS fibres being thicker than the first layer and affecting the print. Can't figure why if they started dissolving the ABS why it hasn't continued. In both cases the ABS was scrap print material. That has therefore been heated & cooled. I wonder if fresh ABS off of the reel would work better?

 

Foam Gun Cleaner:

 

 

LIDL Baufix Thinners:

 

 

 

If anything the foam gun cleaner (first picture) looks to have finer "bits" in. The Baufix thinners one seems to have some long strands in there. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Onoff

[Onoff]

Grated ABS, solvent weld pipe fittings seemed to dissolve pretty well in LIDL Baufix thinners into a slurry. Painted it on a crafty corner of the black glass patio table and it dried to a film. By Christ has it stuck. You can barely scrape it off with your nail. Neat IPA takes it off OK.



So then tried it on a corner of the Anycubic i3 Mega S. The bed is glass but with a coating of some sort with tiny holes in. Gets good reports for adhesion.

The ABS slurry seems to have filled the holes in the bed coating. It's a pig to get off. This is AFTER cleaning with IPA.



Can't take this bed off seemingly. Undid the corner clips but it wouldn't budge. Any ideas?

Don't really want to put slurry on the whole bed or hairspray. Is it that I can get an "over bed" to go atop this one I wonder?

[Gone West]

5 hours ago, Onoff said:

Can't figure why if they started dissolving the ABS why it hasn't continued.

Can you have a saturated solution of that stuff?

[Onoff]

2 hours ago, PeterStarck said:

Can you have a saturated solution of that stuff?

 

Not sure. Doing some more reading and in theory, because of the special bed design on this printer model, adhesion promoters aren't required. However, best results are achieved if the whole printer lives in a draught free enclosure. Cue my next project!

[Onoff]

I'm looking to make an enclosure for this printer. I can knock one up in timber with a "glass" front/door or I've some nice brass angle I figure might make a fish tank esque one. Ideally I'd like to have the printer inside and print smelly stuff like ABS.

I'm lost though as to how "airtight" the box needs to be, if at all.

Maybe on castors and tall with a storage cabinet below.

Or should it be vented (to the outside) to get rid of the smells? Then though will I be venting heat I want to retain for printing ABS? Maybe some sort of integral charcoal filter?

Printing in a hot box, is it detrimental to the printer's electronics?

Should the spool be mounted externally through a feeder tube?

So many newbie questions I appreciate! Any pointers appreciated.

[Temp]

It is possible for prints to stick too well. Ive heard of people pulling bits of glass out of their glass bed.

 

Incidentally glass beds are available on amazon in different sizes and I use small bulldog clips to fix it to the aluminium bed my printer came with. I suppose I should jack up the bed temperature a bit but it doesn't seem too critical for PLA.

 

Just finished printing a stack of 8 head bands taking 8.5 hours. 

 

 

[Onoff]

5 minutes ago, Temp said:

It is possible for prints to stick too well. Ive heard of people pulling bits of glass out of their glass bed.

 

Incidentally glass beds are available on amazon in different sizes and I use small bulldog clips to fix it to the aluminium bed my printer came with. I suppose I should jack up the bed temperature a bit but it doesn't seem too critical for PLA.

 

Just finished printing a stack of 8 head bands taking 8.5 hours. 

 

 

 

My glass seems like its stuck on to the aluminium bed. With double sided tape maybe? 

[Onoff]

Looking to make an enclosure for the 3D printer. Probably on castors and likely with a pc fan at the back for fume extract to a window for when printing ABS. It'll in effect be two 600mm cubes. Top one for the printer and the lower one shelved out for storage.

 

Plan for the top is to have a vertically sliding clear panel. This will nominally be 600x600. Not sure what to use, acrylic, polycarbonate etc. Also what thickness? Any thoughts? Cheers.

 

 

[SteamyTea]

18 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Not sure what to use, acrylic, polycarbonate etc. Also what thickness? Any thoughts? Cheers.

Cast acrylic, it more stable and optically clear.

Probably get away with 4mm, maybe need 6mm.